Podcast Transcript
Unknown Speaker
Hello, and welcome to the macro fab engineering podcast. I'm your host, Parker, Dolman.
Host 3
Unknown Speaker
So we've been working more on the super simple power supply. The front panel is mostly done has lots of LEDs on it, as it should, as it should. I put three rows of segmented displays. So it has two of those. So it's, excuse me, it has six, basically blocks of four digits. Okay, alphanumeric. I'm still trying to tweak the idea of the custom led segmented RGB displays. Yeah, I think that'd be fun. We'll have to look into that some more. Right? We'll get into more it might be that maybe like the rev to the panel. Yeah, kind of want to get a panel done. Yeah, messing with it. So basically, it will show the top will be voltage, and then it'll be amperage and the no show wattage. Cool. And then on the side of those are three bar graphs, which show what relationship is the voltage, or the amperage, or the wattage to the total power consumption of what that channel could do? Hmm. And so if your voltage is set to one, you know, it'd be a little blip on the on the bar graph, but you have it set to 40. It's maxed out, right? Same thing with the amperage and the wattage.
Host 3
Okay, so, so basically, you see, am I pulling a ton of current? Or is my voltage dominating my power?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So it will basically be like a VU meter for the power supply. Yeah. But yeah, okay. And then I've been working on the encoder stuff. I'm still trying to figure out what encoder I want to use. The problem is trying to find a, a encoder that is top mounted. So it points up, that's also low profile enough to fit behind the panel. Yeah, most are too tall. Because I don't want that to be too big, a big gap between the top of the LED segments and the top of the encoder. So
Host 3
you could always drill through the board the width of the encoder? Yeah. And drop it down, and then drop it down. Yeah, that could work. I've done some tricks like that. And I was able to get my PCBs closer to the chassis by actually physically mounting components
Unknown Speaker
through the board through the board. Yeah, that could work. And I have saw, I've seen some reverse mount encoder where the legs go the opposite direction. Towards the shaft. Right. So you mount from the back? Those are really cool. Yeah. pricey, though? Yeah, yes, they don't, they don't have a lot of those in stock usually. And then what we really need to nail down next is the control system. How does the front panel talk to, which actually has all the digital logic on it? How does it talk to the op amps that sit in the back? And yeah, because we have we have a gap right now
Host 3
we know what our driver is, what the what the output guy is, but and we have a general idea of what the digital stuff is. But there's like fog in between. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
there's no, there's no, we haven't sat down and done a this is what this is how the op amp works. This is how we tweak it from the digital end.
Host 3
Right? Just because there is there's not a very straightforward, clear path forward. Exactly. Yeah, we have infinite possibilities. We just have to choose what works for us.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And actually, I was thinking is for the next podcast, Episode Eight, is we should do a live discussion about that is basically on your end is draw up what you need. And I'll drop what I have. Yeah. And we'll have a live discussion of trying to figure out how to make the analog and digital interlocking mesh together. Oh, that sounds great. Yeah. Pretty. So it'd be a little bit different from our normal format.
Host 3
You'll get you'll get to hear us argue about our design choices. Yeah, yeah, that'd be fun. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
And then I've also been thinking about like, auto calibration and that kind of stuff of the like, of the amperage pulling that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah,
Host 3
it's getting there. Sounds like a good idea. Let's let's let's plan for it.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So what have you been working on, Stephen?
Host 3
So I've got a blog post that will be coming out. Sometime in the future, where we are discussing pogo pins. We're actually discussing the merits of pogo pins and the downfalls of pogo pins.
Unknown Speaker
So when you mean merits, like, cuz I've seen on the engineering budget, you've been purchasing lots of different kind of pogo pins. Yeah, exactly. So you got like a box of like 20 different kinds.
Host 3
So okay, so you Here's here's a kind of a hint on what's what's coming up in the future. We're kind of calling this the ultimate Pogo pin showdown right now. pogo pins are incredible music. Yeah. So pogo pins are really, really useful. And there's a lot to choose from. What do you pick? What style do you pick? Is it long, tall? You know, is it skinny? Does it have this kind of head through hole surface mount? Exactly. So I've been buying a bunch of different pogo pins, I'm going to design some tests, and I'm going to send them through just a whole battery of different tests, and see who comes out to be a winner.
Unknown Speaker
Yet, some of the tests are gonna be like current care, current capabilities, how much noise injects into the system?
Host 3
Exactly how much force can they handle? How much? How easily sideloading? Exactly how much stress and strain can I put on them before they either break or? or fails? Yeah, some way? Yeah, yeah. I, you know, would be really fun. I haven't thought about this until right now, if I had like a little thing that could just keep pressing them up and down, and see if I can hit them. You know, I don't know, a million times 10 million times.
Unknown Speaker
Actually do the meeting contact. repeatability. Right. They actually say in their datasheet and see if actually gets through that.
Host 3
Yeah. Sounds like something Dave Jones.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, we should actually, I think what we can do is build is put a DC motor, right? Yeah, yeah, it's just a cam lobe on the end. And it
Host 3
Unknown Speaker
It just beats the hell out of the
Host 3
tip. Yeah. Sounds great. Yeah, so so, you know, keep your eyes open. Yeah. You'll see in the future, you'll see an article that shows the ultimate showdown of pogo pins.
Unknown Speaker
Cool. Yeah. And then on the FX dev board, yeah. The prototype is being made right now. Yep. The Rev two prototype. Expect to see that in the Twittersphere. Soon. Yep. And maybe a blog post about it. I don't know yet. And I've been designing the enclosure part of it pool. And so it's probably going to be a I'm gonna probably use pen studs. So the board sits on that. Yeah. And then the top cover that pops onto it. And I've been trying to figure out how to make it work with, like magnets. Because it'd be really awesome if the top lid kind of like snapped on. Yeah. And so when you wanted to remove it, that just something you just pulled it off. So you'd have to unscrew or mess with like thumb screws or wing nuts or anything. You just kind of pried it off. Hey, was
Host 3
Unknown Speaker
the magnets would be pretty cool. I don't know anything about manufacturing a magnet or a magnetically closed lid. So that's gonna be a first for me. Yeah. Well, that'll be cool. And then actually, last Friday, we came out with the macro fabric came out with the ODB plus plus format. Yep. So we actually accept that format natively now. Right? So, most EDA tools, most, especially the more higher end ones like Altium. And and I think cadence does, yes. They output this, this ODB plus plus format that basically is x, y RS and the machine data for the for the all the different layers all rolled up into one file. It doesn't have the bill of materials also. Yeah. Has that built into
Host 3
Yeah, so it's basically a single file. Yeah, that has all your manufacturing data. Exactly. In fact, dip trace their newest release has ODB plus plus, or they
Unknown Speaker
beat Eagle. Eagle does not have that.
Host 3
Not yet. I'm surprised that someone doesn't have a ULP.
Unknown Speaker
You know, I actually was searching lately last week about that. And I couldn't find a ULP
Host 3
interesting that they have a ULP for everything. Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
except ODB plus plus. Anyways, we macro fab supports that natively now. So basically, we have mostly all the EDA tools covered natively, you don't have to generate that dreaded XY RS formats yet by hand. Right. Which has been a real big blocker for some some of our customers. And but we got it done.
Host 3
Yeah, x y RS can be it's not the funnest thing to generate. But
Unknown Speaker
yeah, well, most people don't even think about it. Or if it's their first time ever making a board. They've never had to mess with that before.
Host 3
Yeah, yeah. Once you once you get it figured out. It's super easy. Yes. Yes. Super easy.
Unknown Speaker
Well, I guess we'll just move straight on heading to the RFO time for Arvo. There was an article, I think about mid last week that he had put out and it was I thought the title was interesting. It was like clickbait Yeah, when he when I'm like, That's kind of weird because he usually doesn't have that kind of stuff. It's like BuzzFeed. And it was a five reasons to love the new USB 3.1 standard. Oh, really? We're covering this,
Host 3
Unknown Speaker
So number five on the list, okay, was the power that you can transfer over the new USB standard, which is really cool. It's 100 Watts and five volts. That's 20 amps. Oh amps at five volts. That's,
Host 3
Unknown Speaker
I want to see these power cables.
Host 3
I was just about to say, there, there ain't no USB that that's out there that can power.
Unknown Speaker
Secondly, your your your iPhone cable, which is like, like, five millimeters in diameter total. Yeah. But um, but the line. In fact, it will be possible to charge your laptop computer using your cell phone and something like, well, cell phone battery has a two amp hour battery. It would drain your battery in what? 10 minutes. You charge your laptop. Yes.
Host 3
Right. Right. And cellphone batteries are already bad. You're not going to be charged. So
Unknown Speaker
when I saw that line, I'm like, yeah, no one's ever
Host 3
gonna do. No, that's ridiculous. Alright, so what's what's number four?
Unknown Speaker
Number four, the USB type C connector, which isn't, isn't specified as a 3.1 connector, but that's the connector they're using, which is type C now. Okay. And basically, it's like the Lightning connector. It's reversible. Okay, and two directions.
Host 3
You mean it can be flipped? 181 80. Yeah. Which, which, by the way? Why was there ever a USB? That was not flippable? Yeah, like the duck style. You know, what's
Unknown Speaker
interesting is Microsoft a couple years back, I think about five, six years ago came out with a USB A type connector. Yeah, that actually had a movable plastic piece in it. So as you put it in, it would sense where it was jamming. And it would snap up the plastic piece and right up and so you could plug it in no matter what
Host 3
it was it just like beveled or something like that. I have I
Unknown Speaker
never released any specs or anything about it. It was one of those like Microsoft came up something really awesome. And it died after they showed
Host 3
Oh yeah. Well, you know the rule you go to put any USB and it doesn't fit. So you turn it over. And you go to plug it in? Yeah, it doesn't fit the second time. So you have to flip it back to the first time and it fits.
Unknown Speaker
So I was it was interesting because it's it's only one at what if you use me the USB connected that was round.
Host 3
Like a like a barrel DC jack barrel, but
Unknown Speaker
it had connectors on the edge. And then when you plugged it in, it didn't matter. And it was somehow auto detect what was power? What was ground and what was that alliance? Yeah,
Host 3
that sounds great. You get right on designing that and make it a standard. You know what, I got some buddies of it. I typically I can call him right now. We'll we'll make this a stand at work tomorrow. It'll be a standard. Alright, number three,
Unknown Speaker
number three 3.1 is backwards compatible with compatible connectors and interchanging stuff which has always been a pain in the butt to use for you. We
Host 3
wait. It's not backwards compatible if you have to have that sounds like some apple crap. Yeah, that sounds like the way Apple handles everything. Yeah, it's not it's backwards compatible. If you give us some more money.
Unknown Speaker
Exactly. Basically, you'd have to have a special connector that that changes the USB 2.0 A to whatever, USB type C. Okay, truly backwards compatible, but I'm calling No, why's it is
Host 3
I'm calling that BS and I'm not gonna get off the list. not know.
Unknown Speaker
So number two was faster data. That's to be expected from a new standard. So nothing too exciting. Okay, that's vanilla. And then number one, one court rule them all. So type C is type C there is no Micro Mini type a type B which is the big printer square ports. There's none of that is just type C. And so basically they're streamline it basically kind of like apple with lightning connector where everything Apple is lightning connector now. Yeah, everything will be type C connector, which is a good thing. That's good.
Host 3
So that brings up one question and hey, I'm down for unifying things. Will that connector handle the abuse that I do for for all my USB minis are micros, I mean, micro
Unknown Speaker
micros, what's interesting about that is because it's very similar to the Lightning connector, okay, um, where it's reversible that kind of way, and we're the connector surfaces themselves are fine, but it's the joint that's right behind it that attaches to the cable is failing. Right. I think actually Apple has a class action lawsuit about that. Really? Yeah. I think that's recent. So Hmm. So as long as you make the strain relief, good, you're probably fine. I'm sure
Host 3
that's not a trivial task. Now. I'm sure there's, there's somebody really smart out there trying to figure that
Unknown Speaker
out. Yeah. Cuz the the big problem with USB mini was the very low retention force. Yeah. And how the low amount of insertions you got with that connector? Because I think minis like when they first came out, you got like 1000 connections. That's it, just like, so if you charge your cell phone once a day, you get three years for that connector fails. Yeah, most of us if you're like, Well, this one, right one, when smartphones were coming out, you had to charge your phone twice a day or three times a day. Yeah. Because they didn't have any battery life. So you're down to one year, one year. If that was all you did, right? Some people haven't plugged their phones in when you're in the car. That's four and five times a day. Exactly. So you had really like people were burning out many connectors left and right. They went to the micro, which only I think the micro only had problems in basically sideways force. Yeah. Because the first micros didn't have in have through hole tabs. So they will just surface mount only and people were just ripping those things off. Oh, yeah. Yeah. So they basically moved to the micros that have two lugs that go right into PCB. Mm hmm. That's all that issue.
Host 3
So here's, here's the, if for any reason, some cable manufacturers are listening to this podcast. Here's the thing. I will pay 50 bucks if you can make me a military grade bulletproof cable that never fails and make it something like 10 feet long. Something something I'm not passing data over it just power. If you do that, I will happily give you 50 bucks, because I guarantee you I've spent 50 bucks on replacing garbage micro USB cables.
Unknown Speaker
Well, the thing is, if they made the cable so badass, we're about the connector side in your phone.
Host 3
Actually, I've had that fail on that one? No, no, no, no. Okay, can't can't help on that one. And the funny thing was, I had that fail on my phone. And of course, I've ripped my phone open and tried to re solder it.
Unknown Speaker
I've actually had that happen with a mini on my Sony wireless headset. Yeah, if I had the mini fail. And so I think every place that that connector three times in the last two years, really. And then last time I said, you know, to hell with it. And I actually 3d printed a 18 650 battery holder. And I super glued it to the side of the headset. And so I just replaced the 18 650 lithium battery. So
Host 3
we're nerds by the way in case anyone wanted to know,
Unknown Speaker
I'll put a picture of that that hack. It's pretty good. Yeah, that's awesome. And actually we're talking about you know, USB connectors ripping off and stuff. I'm in any reason to still use through hole over surface mount parts nowadays, which is one of one's would be connectors. Some connectors are fine if you're only using them once or twice to be through hole only. But there's some times where it's something like a USB connector, which you're using multiple times a day and you kind of need that extra physical, the whole connector in place. Right. So that would still be worth through hole would be
Host 3
I you know, here's the thing, if, if your connectors going to be used once or twice in the lifespan of the product, surface mount is fine. But but if it's if it's a if the purpose of the product is to use that connector, yeah, it makes my gut kind of feel bad feel kind of rumbly if if I'm using surface mount connection, because it's I've had enough experience it's gonna rip off the board. It will happen eventually.
Unknown Speaker
Eventually. Yeah. Any other other things like through hole caps resistors that kind of stuff nowadays,
Host 3
you know if it's if they're like monsters, and they're, you know, like a big sale and in you know, sticking up off the top of the bow. Yeah, well,
Unknown Speaker
I think that goes back to retention forces. You don't want that cap to rip off. Right. But what about resistors? Like a regular eighth watt resistor? Is there any reason to use a through hole eighth watt resistor anymore?
Host 3
The only situations that I can think of where people would argue against that is because you already mentioned the power situation. Audio guys are the only guys because they care about the company. decision of what the resistor is made of. Exactly, exactly. I agree with you, I agree with you. But other than that, no, there's there's no reason no use use the surface mount guys, unless the the component is somehow going to get hot enough to melt its own solder being bing bing, bing surface mount, which is you got a serious problem if that's happening anyway. So no go servers, man. Okay.
Unknown Speaker
And then favorite books that you would recommend to new designers.
Host 3
Ah, I got one off the top of my head right now. And in fact, last year, a new copy of it came out The Art of electronics. Oh, yeah.
Unknown Speaker
You know, I've actually never read that book.
Host 3
You know what? I haven't home? I'll bring it into work. You need to read it.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. So why why is that such a good book?
Host 3
It is the Bible of electronic design. It certainly cost a lot more than a Bible. It's like 100 bucks for this book, which is a lot to fork out. But I mean, if you if you read it cover to cover and comprehend what's going on. I mean, you're gonna know electronics. The funny thing was, I have the second edition, they just released the third edition, the second edition, I can't remember when it was copyrighted. It was like 1987 or something like that. So it's not up to date. But the funny thing, is, everything in there still applicable? It's really good. I mean,
Unknown Speaker
because in the 80s, they still had they were there's the microcontrollers were sold, you know, kind of in their infancy, but they were around, does it cover like the 880 51 microcontroller? Oh,
Host 3
there's like an entire, like, 100 pages on the 51. It's a it's it's a good book,
Unknown Speaker
I would say it's probably the second edition still
Host 3
relevant? Yeah, I think the third edition, they rewrote large chunks of the book to just be a little bit more up to date. They I mean, there's a lot of focus on like BJT style circuits. In the in the second edition, which makes sense for the age and things. I'm sure those have been updated. One of the things that's really great about the book is it's not massively academic. It's more like, it's also it's also not like a compendium where you just look it up, and it tells you the answer. You have to read it. And you have to comprehend what's going on. And it gives good examples. But it's also not like, tons and tons of theory and formulas. Yeah, it's really good. Somewhere in the middle. It's very down to earth. It's fantastic to have as a reference on your desk, favorite, favorite electronic book, for sure.
Unknown Speaker
And then mind would be, which is actually a little higher level would be AMC for product designers. Okay, Tim Williams is actually that's my favorite book. So actually would be very good. If you're just starting out electronics is probably read that art electronics. Yeah. And then if you really like that and actually want to start developing products, Mm hmm. This book is probably the next thing you have to read. Because it covers everything on making sure you make a design that can pass FCC and CE certification. It doesn't actually cover in great detail about that stuff. But it has all the gotchas and like, this is how this test works. Yeah, and what your look what it's looking for. And then how do you design your circuit board to get rid of that, like stray frequencies and that kind of stuff. Like, maybe you can
Host 3
just squeak by the test and make sure you have,
Unknown Speaker
make sure you have good ground returns, that kind of stuff. ferrite beads, all that good jazz, that good stuff. And that book is amazing. And it's kind of funny, that one runs about 80 bucks to brand new.
Host 3
I tell you what, I've actually never read that book. Sounds like we need to do a swap.
Unknown Speaker
I do a swap. That's probably good. Yeah. Cool. I think that we'll be wrapping up this episode of the macro fab engineering podcast. I'm your host Parker Dolman.
Host 3
And I'm Stephen Craig. Catch on next time. Take it easy.
