On this Episode, Parker and Stephen talk about silkscreen markings on diodes and tracking beer drinking.
Podcast Transcript
Host 2
Hello, and welcome to the macro fab engineering podcast where your hosts Parker Dolan and Steven Craig, this is episode 52. Almost one year, one week away from one year. Yeah, I'm amazed that we've been doing this for a year, almost a year now.
Host 3
Yeah, it's gone really quick.
Host 2
Yeah, I'm just, I mean, the first couple episodes were recorded in my really acoustically terrible kitchen. And a couple of times in your, you know, apartments. Yeah. Now we have a really nice studio recording and, yeah,
Host 3
we're already reminiscing and it's not even one year, not even one yet. Yeah. Honestly, the thing I'm surprised about, I guess not too surprised. But we haven't missed a week.
Host 2
Not yet. We had one week where I took off for a family vacation and we pre recorded an episode. That's right. And then another episode I recorded while I was on vacation, right? Yes,
Host 3
but they've always released once a week, once a week. Yeah, so far, so good.
Host 2
Let's keep it up for Well, I'm not gonna say until next week.
Host 3
Yeah. One more year. One more. Yeah.
Host 2
Okay, um, at the end of last episode, we were talking about mounting holes. Yep. And so I stuck to my word and my guns is I went ahead and I wrote that into an article a way to go, and y'all can go up on our blog at macro voices.com/blog. I think it's what it is. That's right. And it's probably the first thing you'll see when you load that page up. So
Host 3
Whew. A whole article on mounting holes. Yes, it with a bunch of good images.
Host 2
Yeah, I I drew most of them. Some of them I found on the internet, but some of them I drew they look good. Yeah. Then we also talked about that PLC that we got last week. Yep. The really awesome Arduino open source PLC have goodness, I guess. I was able to finally get the Wi Fi connected. It's got an ESP 8266. So basically, what I did is I use this piece of software called ies Splore it's got it's got actually got different firmware on it. Then the standard ESP 8266 firmware, which uses 80 commands, which is like old school modem stuff, right? So uses a different kind of firmware. And so I was like, Okay, do I have to load up you know, the the stock firmware or how do I talk to it? So I found this ESP floor software that I think a Russian guy wrote it's pretty nice you actually can talk directly to it via serial and manipulate basically everything about it so that's that's really nice. You can load up the it's it runs Lua. This the the language Lua, which I do not know. So I've been learning basically doing crash courses and learning how that that language software works. Lua
Host 3
l uA? Yep. Haven't heard of that.
Host 2
Yeah, it's kind of weird and interesting. Yeah, and so but to get to, so you can talk to the ESP 8266. is, it took a long time to figure out how to talk to it because it's on the other side of the 80 Mega that's inside this box. Inside the PLC? So it's like how do you talk to it without cracking the case open and putting it right and putting your, you know, serial FTDI cable, right on the headers for it? Yeah. And you can actually they have some software that you can load that's on their GitHub. It's, I can't remember the name of it. But if you look at it, it's I think it's called node MCU, which is the firmware helper, okay, or loader helper or something, and you load that on. And it basically turns the 80 Mega is just a pass through. And so it passes the serial commands back and forth between the the computer
Host 3
also you don't have to open up the case. And you could do it over USB. Yep. Okay, that kind of sucks, though. Because you have to dump whatever is on your MCU just to be able to talk to it.
Host 2
Yeah, you have to do that. So you basically have to load a different program to talk to it. I bet you you could probably write your own software to do that. So you can make it configurable in the menu.
Host 3
Well, yeah, I guess if they gave you the code, you could just dump that into yours. Yeah. And
Host 2
and just make that an option. Like click a button for, you know, update. ESB. Yeah. Who
Host 3
am I talking to? Yeah, who
Host 2
am I talk to you in there. No pass through. Gotcha. I betcha that would work too. So yeah, um, and then extension of that I've been slowly setting up the IoT network at macro fan. Basically starting to test all that stuff out. So I've got I got an old computer While it's not that old, but old ish compared to what we use, I loaded up Ubuntu on it. Got that running today. And I have a, you know, a switch slash Wi Fi guide that I'm, you know, building my network off of, mainly, I don't want to mess with the current Wi Fi network that we have at macro fab. Because it'd be terrible if I brought down everyone's internet Yeah, and see what else I do this week. Oh, yeah, the giant clock that we talked about a long time ago. I finally finished the preliminary design for a segments and I ordered it. So I'm building the it's basically like a seven segment clock. Set. Well, seven segment LED clock display. Yeah. But huge, ginormous, you buy big ones. But this one's on another level of bigness. Just one segment is 6.3 inches by 2.6 inches. And so you get seven of these segments of these individual boards per digit times six. So that's what 42 He knows. Yeah, yeah.
Host 3
42 almost four feet. Yeah, have a wide.
Host 2
Yeah, that's awesome. Great big. And each segments got AB 60805 LEDs on it. Wow. Yeah. And then that 1.8 volts that pulls about 1.7 ish amps. So it's gonna be pretty pretty beefy.
Host 3
It's gonna be thirsty when when you have the number eight song does it do it? Did you make two little circle ones? No, in between? No, I
Host 2
won't make some circles while actually think about making rectangles. Or squarish. Oh, okay. Yeah, I gotta do that. But to mount and give everything power. I put two mounting holes on it. And one of them is connected to the all the anodes and once connected to all the cathodes. And so the board I'm going to see and Cl a ginormous, your piece of plywood with holes on it. And then standoff will go into the holes. And then underneath the standoff, I'll put a spade connector connected to all the power supply. And the you know, control. You know, doodads? Right? Yeah.
Host 3
So kill two birds with one stone. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
Be pretty cool. Yeah, that's awesome. And that's, that's what I've been doing this week. So.
Host 3
So on, to me, the FX dev board, we're going to be given an update on that for the next coming weeks, as it as we're going through the through the campaign. So there's 21 days less left. And we're doing we're doing all right, so we got some new content that's coming out tomorrow. I'm actually so in last week we're making a we made some videos, or one video on kind of going a little bit further into the details on the actual board itself, and showing some more like cool little secrets and stuff. That little things that make your life easier if you're doing the design work on there. And tomorrow, we're actually going to be doing an application. So I'm going to be building a little circuit on there. And you can see some of the some of the cool little things that the board will give you. Yeah. So yeah, keep your eyes open for that. If you haven't gone and checked it out, please go to crowd supply.com and check out the FX development board. You can also go to FX Dev board.com and get all the information there. Please go and share that with anyone that you know who would be interested in. Great, so the greatest resistor in the world. We saw that that. I think we had actually ordered that last week.
Host 2
Yeah, we ordered it. Wednesday, Tuesday is last week.
Host 3
Right. Right. So it's still on order. But that should be arriving soon. I would expect
Unknown Speaker
I'm hoping it arrives next Friday. Next Friday.
Host 3
I would think it would be earlier than that. I'm hoping. Yeah, we'll see.
Unknown Speaker
Couple of days for shipping and all that good
Host 3
stuff. Yeah, yeah, that's true. So I wouldn't be surprised if we have it next week. So probably in two weeks or so we can have that kind of built up. Yeah. So greatest resistor in the world is our big resistor array capacitor re stuff. We've been talking about it for the past couple, five podcasts. Yeah, something like that. So yeah, we'll have that going in the next couple of weeks. So I actually pulled up a project from quite a while ago.
Host 2
risen from the dead. That's right. Um, be project will sort of,
Host 3
at any one point in time, I'm juggling, like 30 different projects. And it's just like, which 1am I'm working
Unknown Speaker
Host 3
Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. So it either goes one of two ways, which 1am I most interested in right now, or which one is the most on fire right now.
Host 2
And which one costs less than to keep going Well, yeah,
Host 3
that's true. That is very true. So I resurrected, I shouldn't say resurrected because I have been working on it periodically. Regardless, I put a bunch of work into a synthesizer project I've been working on. In fact, we first kind of talked about it back in episode number 35. Yep. Which was October of 16. That's right. That's right. That's the one. And And so basically, what I was doing back then was I was designing one small portion of an entire synthesizer. And my goal this week was to just kind of throw down a board with that one portion. And Parker can probably tell you, I'm fantastic at doing feature creep. And I ended up I ended up building like a larger portion, because I wanted this to have just a little bit more functionality, and then a little bit more. And it just kind of rolled and spawned and snowball Yeah, into how I can spawn. Yeah, now I have an entire synthesizer on a single PCB. And, of course, it was basically what it was, was I designed nine different modules, individual modules. And I wanted to test the functionality of each one. And instead of building nine individual PCBs, I just decided why not throw them all on one. So basically, I have a module that converts MIDI signals to control voltage, I have a VCO core module, which takes that control voltage and converts it into six separate waves. I have a wave animator, voltage controlled filter of voltage controlled amplifier, and ADSR, which is attack decay, sustain release envelope, and a low frequency oscillator and some other little stuff sprinkled in. So I have like all of these modules that just said, you know, screw it, it's all going on one board. And I got all of it in the schematic done. And it ended up being 507 components, which is a lot. How
Unknown Speaker
big is this board going to be?
Host 3
Oh, four inches by four inches. Four layer
Unknown Speaker
Host 3
Yeah, I'm planning on squishing it down as much as possible. I know it because this is kind of like a grand prototype. I don't want it to be this huge, like two foot by two foot board. I'm just going to try to squish it down into as much as possible and if it becomes a rat's nest of wires, I really don't care because
Unknown Speaker
you actually auto route it in earlier.
Host 3
I tried it Yeah. Well, okay, so did Trace has as it has some weird functions. When you when you drop your components into a PCB from your schematic, it just spreads them wherever. It just drops them anywhere. And it has multiple buttons that you can pressed in order to organize the components. One of them is Eagle
Host 2
head that it doesn't know so what Eagle does is when you when you open up a new so he finishes schematic. Yeah. And you click the switch to board l most time you don't have a board graded. Yes, it goes, Oh, create a board. So you hit yes. And then it just drops a stray line. Oh, that is doing something as big as like, let's say the pin heck, we got like 600 components, it's 600 components in a straight line all the way down. So when you get towards the end, you're like scrolling around grabbing parts and dragging them back up to your board. Oh, that's so terrible. Yeah, that's okay. So that outer desk, yeah, yeah, no
Host 3
lie. So Dimitri says two functions, if you don't have a board outline, you can do like a sort, where it will put everything in the positive quadrant. And based off of some parameters you give it, it will space them based off of that into a grid. So you can just put everything there. And then once you have a board placed, you can do an auto place, but that's worthless. In fact, I think we're going to talk about that later on. Regardless. In fact, let me ask you this. So the way I always lay out a board when I have a bunch of components, is I sort them. And then I make little boxes in my assembly layer, basically, that clumps groups of parts together. Like if I have like, for example, on this synthesizer, I had some ATMEGA 328 piece. I put those chips in there and then all the peripheral chips or caps and resistors that connect to it. I put them in a little box and I clump everything together.
Host 2
That's why do you do I don't I don't draw like individual boxes or stuff. Okay, I just like I'll take I'm like, okay, all these parts are for the filter. I put them here. And then I'll old stuff for the power supply go here. And then when I sort all those out, then I'll go in actually look at the rat nest and start, you know, organizing them that way. Gotcha. Okay, and a lot of we basically do the same thing. A lot of times also, I'll actually draw a draw plane with the ground. Yeah. And that will get rid of because I know I'm going to basically try to route everything, all the signals on one side. Yep. And then have a straight ground plane. Yeah, so I'll basically doing that get rid of all the ground nets. And so I can see what I actually have two routes. I gotcha.
Host 3
I gotcha. Okay. So, in fact, I don't know about this in Eagle industries, you can, you can say hide a ratline for a particular net, you can do that in eagles. Okay. So
Unknown Speaker
when it comes to the use that they you go and solve, because I would forget to route it later.
Host 3
Maybe. So, so I've got positive and negative 15 planes and a whole ground plane. I'm just turning all those nets off, because I know I'm just going to drop a via and it'll connect right to that plane. So I turn all those off. And that gets rid of so many ratlines. It's not even funny. This isn't gonna be for lair. Oh, yeah. Yeah. No, I would be psycho to try to do this in one or two layers. Yeah. Although I am going to try to do most of the signals in one layer. Oh, yeah. That's what I was trying to do. uninterrupted. Planes are a big deal. Well, that also looks awesome. Right? Well, yeah. And there's like a level of there's a weird level of challenge that like, if you actually succeed doing that you're like, Yeah, I did that actually designed
Host 2
a customer's programming fixture. And I did like, 99% of it on one layer. No, yeah, it's four layer board. Yeah. And then I had to run like the reset line to the microcontroller.
Host 3
Actually, funny enough, you, you finished that this week, right? No, last week, it was like, Okay, last Friday. That's right. It was last Friday. Parker is usually fairly energetic and noisy is not the right word. But there's sounds coming from Parker during the day. Man, he was in the zone doing this PCB, like, not a sound coming from Parker and you couldn't ask him questions. He was just his eyes. Were just on the screen. I had knocked that thing out. Yeah. No, you did it. You killed it. Yeah, it was it was kind of impressive.
Host 2
Basically, if I put my headphones on at my computer, I'm like, yeah, right zone right in.
Host 3
Yeah. Yeah. You just got to be a laser beam. I do that I got this weird thing. I probably told Parker 1000 times this. But I can put I can put a single song on repeat literally hundreds of times when I'm laying out a piece of the same thing. Yeah, I could just put it for some reason it gets you in a trance. And I just all laid out a PCB is the funnest. It turns
Host 2
off, you're, like, thinking part of your brain. And so all you have to do is just like, the task at hand. Sure, that's my or
Host 3
the other way to say that I think is more like it focuses you on nothing but that
Host 2
Yeah, well, yeah. It's just a lot of times we'll be I'll be working on a project and like, and something will click my memory or something, and I'll start thinking about a different project. I don't need to work on that. All right. So playing, playing music on repeat or something like that. Turns that part off? Yeah. least for me,
Host 3
Well, funny enough, I started I started doing something like that, on this synth thing, just just the other night. And I started working at like, 730 at night on this thing. My wife comes into the room at 1230 in the morning. And she was like, Are you Are you okay? I look back. I was like, Yeah, and I was like, what, what, what, what's wrong? And then I realized I had been sitting at my bedroom for five hours and hadn't moved and I had like electric dance music going for five hours. When I was doing
Host 2
that fixture I was listened to the bat out of hell by meatloaf. Perfect. It's guitar solos were 10 hours. Yeah, that's
Host 3
right. Electrical engineers were messed up in the head. Oh, that should be our slogan a little bit. So okay, yeah, that's what I've been doing. On the RFO Yeah.
Host 2
RFO really cool project I saw on the hackaday.io was their project site. Yeah. Cuz we always like talking about IoT stuff. We like giving him crap. But this one was actually kind of interesting, because it's one of my favorite hobbies, beer drinking. Oh, basically, this guy's got this project to figure out how many beers you've drunk that night with an IMU on your wrist. So like how many times you you know, drink from a beer and calculate out how many beers you've had from that, huh? And he hasn't gotten too far into the project from I've seen so far. But it looks pretty promising. He's got custom hardware. Basically, he's got like a Bluetooth and a IMU that goes to a smartphone. That or is that a smartphone? I can't remember. It's got a le display. Old school shit. looks really awesome. I kind of want to try that out. When we go to like a bar,
Host 3
you know, okay, like, I think that's super cool. And it's fun. But it's, it's hilarious. And this is totally an electrical engineer doing this. It has to be because because it's a guy who's putting a ton of technology into something that you can just count in. You're just like, oh, that's two beers. That's three.
Host 2
It's like a walking. It looks like a pedometer. Well, it's
Host 3
Host 2
Oh, there we go. I gotta turn that into, into the podcast title. Anti fit.
Host 3
And there we go. We got the title. Yeah,
Host 2
that's, that's awesome. Really cool project. I'm really hope I want to see his data. Like, how he's measuring drinks. Yeah, and, and get screwed. You got to average that out. Because you know, sometimes you will take 11 sips. Sometimes you'll take, you know, five depends on the beer, maybe sometimes you
Host 3
hammer the entire pint in one go.
Host 2
Because I'm gonna guess it probably will eventually just average it out kind of like, you know, Fitbits do because Fitbit can't actually like, when you step, sure they can detect that. But what if you like, jumped in place or dropped your phone or something like that?
Host 3
Oh, yeah. It's It's not about being accurate. On the on the granular level. It's about just global.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Global accuracy. Yeah, right. Cool.
Host 3
It's a cool project. Let's keep our eye on. Yeah.
Host 2
This is yours. It's SparkFun and Mouser. Haven't a thing they're doing.
Host 3
Yeah, I saw I saw an article pop up this week. And I think it's super cool. So SparkFun and Mouser are kind of teaming up in the sense that SparkFun is now going to be offering a handful. Well, I shouldn't even say a handful, as they say 500 products at Mouser. Now, which I think is super cool. A lot of the things that they were showcasing, were Arduino based. They have their there's a whole bunch of lily pad stuff that's gonna be available will but their their red board, which is spark funds version of the Arduino. And they have the Arduino Pro, though all of those are now going to be available directly from Mouser. Which is, you know, it's kind of curious because it's like, well, who cares? Because you could have just gotten them from SparkFun. But the reason why I think this is really cool is because there's so many times that I'm designing a little gizmo or widget where an Arduino would be great. But I'd also like to pick up some really specific resistors or blah, blah, blah, whatever. Now I can do that all in one location with one shipping. And it's it's all from Mouser, which is great.
Host 2
Yeah, cuz I'm before this, you can get some of atta fruit stuff from Mouser. Right? Yeah. So I guess it's just a Mouser partnering up with more maker centric companies.
Host 3
Well, and it's great because, okay, you've you've experienced this plenty Parker, the the maker community is awesome. And it's fun. But their, the the ecosystem that they create, is like, you get maker stuff, and you only get maker stuff. In other words, like, take resistors for an example, at SparkFun, you can get resistance at SparkFun. But they're gonna be your carbon composition quarter watt resistors. Okay, you're going to get the maker resistor
Host 2
maker, you're gonna get three resistors that you can use on breadboards Exactly. Not gonna get in, you're not gonna get an Oh, 603 a 11.7k that you need for your audio feedback loop.
Host 3
Exactly. But the opposite was true. If you went to Melzer, you could get that super special resistor. But you know, screw you if you're trying to get an Arduino. Now you're on board,
Host 2
like a low cost maker or needed, like, Dev board. Exactly. Get all the dev boards that let's say Atmel makes or or let's say ti makes, but you're gonna pay out the wazoo because,
Host 3
or you could get all the parts to make an Arduino or a dev board or whatnot. But you couldn't get the maker dev board now. There's one location where they're all together. Which that's kind of cool. If he asked me
Host 2
there, we'll see. I want I want to see the carry more. They're like robotics stuff to Well, I
Host 3
mean, 500 products. That's that's a boatload. Yep. I wonder if
Unknown Speaker
that company polu. will team up with Mouser?
Host 3
Who knows? I mean, it looks like Mouser is trying to branch out to these kinds of things. Pololu
Host 2
Lou? Yeah, I think that's what it is. It's something weird that that company is awesome. How much crazy robotics stuff they have. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so last week, we're talking about mounting holes. Right, right. So this week we are we're going to do a double back to back right. Yeah, because next week, we're actually going to have a guest that's right. Yeah. secret guest so
Host 3
so next week I'll be writing an article yet
Host 2
on on our topic, which is
Host 3
properly marking parts with silkscreen diodes. diodes, these ones. It's funny that we're starting with diodes because diodes are like the worst worst for marking the actual absolute worst. And in. So
Host 2
we're going to be the next one will be a part of the capacitors for silkscreen, right? So this is Sure
Host 3
why not? Series? Yeah, I think it's better to just let's pick a component. Let's give some examples. And let's say here's a good way of doing it. Okay. So diodes? Well, first of all I do I do a lot of help with the manufacturing side at macro fab in terms of generating programs for all of our pick and place machinery, and things of that sort. And so I deal a lot with customers, and how they mark their components on their boards. And it's all over the place. There is no industry, there is absolutely no standard. Let's make another standard to circumvent all other standards. Yeah, the macro fab standard. We're sort of almost doing that by writing this article. It's, you're right, you're right. It says so. So here's the thing. Like, nobody follows the same convention. It's, it's confusing at best. Yeah. So it's funny because I actually have my own way of doing it. And you even have your own way of doing it. Right. Okay. So before we go into actually talking about it, what is your way of marking diet? So
Host 2
I always put no matter what the datasheet says. Yeah, I always put a mark on the cathode. Okay. Okay. It is a to lead. LED. So if it's a if it's a, like a chip size led like an OA Oh, 60805 or, Oh, 603 or whatever. I put a mark on the outboard side of the cathode. Okay, not underneath underneath because that way you can see it when there's an LED soldered on the board. Hey, that's smart. Yeah, exactly. And then if it's a if it's like a T one or T three or T five size, led, like a through hole go through whole guy, I will do the normal, you know, draw circle with a notch with a flat edge. Edge is typically is the cathode? Yeah. Unless you're using a really old school red one, and it's not gray. Um, that's an ODE. But besides that, so if it's a mold dye lead part, like some of the crazy you know, ws 2012 Yep. Or some of the like RGB LEDs that have four leads that have a common cathode a common anode. I put a mark on the screen where the pin and not pin indicator where the package indicator hazards. Yeah. So like if you have a for lead part and it's got a mark on pin one. You put a mark on your board where pin one would be somewhere Mark pin three someone Mark can for it depends on menu. You know, it's kind of like crystals to Yeah, and usually I'll try to copy what the pin mark is. Yeah, if it's like a if it's a if it's a better cut, yeah, I'll put a corner cut on the silkscreen. If it's a dot, I'll put a dot etc, etc.
Host 3
Yeah, yeah. Okay, great. So So you have a convention
Host 2
Yeah, I always stick that those those two rules.
Host 3
So I like those rules, potentially minus one, though, the one thing that I do differently is I always mark my footprint based off of what the package is marked as what you can see is what you get. So when it comes to the anode cathode convention 99% of the time it is going to point towards the cathode on the diode or an LED, maybe not 99% 90% of the time, it's going to point towards the cathode. So you pretty much you're you're going to be okay for the most part if you do have your marking towards the cathode, but it's not always true. Do what I've found is if you always make your footprint match what the datasheet shows in terms of how the component is marked, then you have the best chance for success but then you have to double your
Unknown Speaker
Host 3
Well okay, so this is another topic this is something that that I do a lot less No but I used to do every single time I made a board I would make a unique footprint for every part. Yeah, every single part including resistors and caps it just used to be my method. Now I've done me well now the thing is now I have found some like Oh 6030805 packages that I like and I know they work and I'm happy with them so I'd never change those everything else I make custom packages for so I would make a custom package for every that's
Unknown Speaker
why it's so long the layout boards
Host 3
it takes me longer Yeah cuz I the thing is I don't like trusting other. Oh, no, I
Host 2
agree with you. I don't trust a lot of other people's layout. Yes, things but I have my own life. They've built up over the past like decade.
Host 3
Oh, you know, the funny thing is I have that too. But my library is filled with unique part numbers, not like NYC eight, it'll be a part number to seven
Host 2
degrees is a lot of times like I actually haven't i ti, so soI C eight. Right? And I have manufacture ones like that. Gotcha. Yeah. And then if there was one that's funky, I'll actually because there's some that have SRC wide packages, right?
Host 3
And narrow and then all that other garbage. Okay. Yeah, so let's steer this back. Okay, so marking diodes or silkscreen, here is the suggestion right here. Mark your silkscreen with an actual diode symbol. So I triangle underneath the component that is really clear for most people, and then also mark outside the package with a separate marking, that shows the component marking. So in other words, if you have a cathode marked led, you'd have, you'd have the two pads with a triangle in between the pads. And then outside of those pads on either the cathode or anode, whichever one is, has the actual component marking, you put a dot,
Host 2
I would agree with that. The only problem is, when you that's works fine with Oh, 805. But when you 20603, the pads are too close to usually put an arrow on anything. That's right.
Host 3
So at that point, you just put the dot and the dot represents how the component is marked, okay? Because here's the thing, when it comes to diode diodes, not LEDs, they're almost always cathode mark. LEDs are the ones that get a little bit funky. And even between a single manufacturer, they will have some LEDs anode marked in some datasheet. Right, right. And it's so worth mentioning that and marking that on your parts. So for LEDs always mark how the component is to be rotated effectively. But if you can put as much information as possible on your board, if you have a little arrow on your board that represents a diode symbol, it is very hard to get that wrong as a contract manufacturer Exactly. But if you but if all you have is like this weird like star that's put in a weird location and has its
Host 2
next another part that might be pin one for that.
Host 3
Right like it makes it so difficult. So a little bit of extra work for clarity makes it so much easier on the contract manufacturer. So
Host 2
you just want to make your job easier. Of course, everyone wants to do. And with that, that was episode 52 of the macro engineering podcast. We're your hosts Parker Dolman and Steven Craig. Later guys take it easy. How's that for natural, abrupt
