- Benjamin Heckendorn
- An electronics hacking entertainment guru
- Former host of Element 14’s “ The Ben Heck Show”
- Chris Kraft
- A tinkerer currently working as a software engineer in the financial services industry
- Extensive background in 3d printing and building anything that seems interesting
- Previous Podcasts with Ben and Chris
- Has Open Source Hardware Run It’s Course?
- A google search of “open hardware” or “open source hardware” yields one of two results
- A definition of OSHW
- A lot of requests for is there an open source XYZ?
- 10 commercially successful open source hardware projects in 2013
- Top Open-Source Hardware Websites and Community in 2019
- E3D’s no-nonsense approach to intellectual property
Special thanks to whixr over at Tymkrs for the intro and outro!
About The Hosts
Parker Dillmann is MacroFab's Co-Founder, and Lead ECE with backgrounds in Embedded System Design, and Digital Signal Processing. He got his start in 2005 by hacking Nintendo consoles into portable gaming units. He also runs the blog, longhornengineer.com, where he posts his personal projects, technical guides, and appnotes about board layout design and components. Parker graduated with a BS in Electrical and Computer Engineering from the University of Texas.
Stephen Kraig began his electronics career by building musical oriented circuits in 2003. Stephen is an avid guitar player and, in his down time, manufactures audio electronics including guitar amplifiers, pedals, and pro audio gear. Stephen graduated with a BS in Electrical Engineering from Texas A&M University.
Host 2 00:10
Hello and welcome to the macro fat engineering podcast. We're your hosts Parker, Dolman.
Host 1 00:16
And Steven Craig.
Host 2 00:17
This is episode 298. And we have two special guests today
Host 1 00:24
Are supposed to say something
Host 1 00:25
Here who I'm wondering who's showing up?
I don't know. Who are the special guests?
Host 2 00:31
Okay, we have two normal guests.
Yes, it is us. Wait, are you going to announce us are we had to say who we are.
Host 2 00:40
Yet to say who you are. You've been on the podcast, y'all. I've been on podcasts more than anyone else
So far. Right? But shouldn't be like today we have a special special guest joining us from Wisconsin. It's Chris Craft, Chris. Welcome to the show.
Host 1 00:52
Thank you, Ben.
Now you do that same thing for me. What did you say? I just did my radio voice. I can't remember. Okay. God was like, today in America fat podcast, we have a special guest. Coming all the way down from Wisconsin. It's Chris Craft and I'm talking like William Shatner.
Host 1 01:10
Okay. Right? And he's going to space anyways.
I know. I saw that news article and I thought, oh, god dammit. Did he die? Right? Because I'm like, No, you're wrong.
Host 2 01:19
I'd be willing to wait to get the space as
Well. No, it's like, it's like William Shatner, blah, blah. I'm like, Oh, Christ. Did he die? And it's like, no, he's going to space. I'm like, Who?
Host 2 01:27
He will die sometime. Probably before you. It's hard to be a downer on this. This early in
The podcast. All right, Chris. It's your turn to do
Host 1 01:36
A video voice. Why don't do a radio voice. But welcome to the macro fat engineering podcast. With your special guests this week. Benjamin heckendorn.
I'm glad to be here.
Host 2 01:49
Thank you, everyone. Was that so hard?
Kind of? Yeah. I mean, yeah, I felt like we're under pressure. You doing your job for you? Usually I write
Host 2 01:57
It down. But you know, didn't do that this week. So engineer Bob in chat says no special guests were the right word. So this week, we have an interesting topic.
I think that I think the politically correct term is developmentally challenged guests.
Host 2 02:20
Sure, you want for it that way? Sorry. So we have a so Chris and Ben had been on the podcast many times before. I don't have the episode numbers off on my cheat sheet here, but go Google it. And there'll be in the show notes as well. I think that's like the fourth time you've been on the podcast. There was one time where we went fishing. And Ben was on the podcast. And then there was another time. I don't remember when, but there was the other time we were in actually the bomb shelter recording with Josh, our audio engineer. And Steven, and that was before Hurricane Harvey.
Right before the studio got flooded studios, great
Host 1 03:03
Now it is a sunken subterranean hellscape
Host 2 03:11
I think they drained it. But that studio is no more
Host 1 03:18
Yeah, believe it's been redeveloped or whatever.
Host 2 03:21
It's called like, it's like it's like called post HDX or something like that now.
Host 1 03:25
Yeah, that's right. They're turning it into a mall.
They were gonna keep recording there. But it turned out to be a sunk cost fallacy. Wow.
Host 2 03:39
Okay, we're already eight minutes into this thing. We don't have a topic yet. It's hot. I had the air conditioner. So we have very interesting audio setup. We have like a room audio Yeti mic. That's recording for squad casts, which is what we use for recording audio and doing the broadcasting for our live show. And then everyone else is holding microphones. And I'm using a boom mic. And then the here Steven because he's in Colorado. He's over my big speak like he's being broadcasted in this room over like, probably was to 12 inch speakers. A six inch mid range and then a tweeter.
How are you supposed to fit a turtle's head to this?
Host 2 04:26
So Steve, Christmas gave
Host 1 04:33
Well, at least let him get through the introduction.
Host 1 04:34
No, we're done. This is professionality at its best,
But it's not perfect.
Host 2 04:41
Yeah, the audio will not be perfect. And then I'm sorry. So sorry, Josh. We're probably gonna have a lot of bleed over. You're gonna have a lot of work tomorrow morning to do. I can see that.
Josh he is the audio Jesus.
Host 2 04:54
He's the audio Jesus. Yes. Okay.
Host 1 04:56
He'll fix it but we do so he will die
For your art. I've sent you not forgiven for today. Yes. Okay. Yes. And then a good sound file will come out three days later.
Host 2 05:07
No tomorrow at like, 4pm
Host 1 05:09
Oh my god, oh, it's
Faster than the real Jesus.
Host 1 05:12
What happens again? It'll be more like the audio Jesus of revelations who lays waste to all his enemies in the blood is up with the horse's knees.
That's really good turned over time. Oh, I mean, you get like the Domino's Pizza tracker for Jesus and Jesus on the cross. He's in the oven. Oh, he's funding coming out for delivery. But your guy does it one
Host 1 05:36
Day find it remarkable that there is little to no shame that a podcast that has the word engineering in the middle of its name could be so poorly engineered on the audio.
Host 2 05:45
So Robert was listening to pockets. Y'all really missed out not being in the Livestream.
Kind of make up for it.
Host 2 05:54
That's great. Great. All right. So the serious topic today. Is has open source run its course. I'm aiming to intro.
Host 1 06:11
Open Source Hardware.
Host 2 06:13
Yes, open source hardware, has open source hardware run its course. And we already have DJ in Twitch chat saying no.
Right. But it's not all cat. So I'm not sure if I really believe it.
Host 1 06:27
So given that you guys came up with this, this topic earlier today? I'm curious what you mean by run its course? Do you mean that it's worn out? Do you mean that no one cares anymore? What exactly are you meaning by that?
Host 1 06:42
I mean, I can give some context to like, what why we were talking about it because I follow the RepRap project a lot and usually go to the Midwest RepRap festival here and, and I was on the Reddit 3d printing sub not the there is a rep raps of that I was on the 3d printing so and someone asked, they were trying to get a second printer. And someone suggested they use their current print printer rep rep kit. And their response was What's that? Like, people were applying going butts rep breath in a 3d printing forum. And, and I thought, That's it like, close up shop, give it up, it's gone. I mean, at least in granted. We're being, you know, exaggerating and better for dramatic flare. But still, when an idea is just gone, it seems from the consciousness, then you start wondering, is is it? You know? Are these ideas still in the forefront of people's minds? Or are they kind of passe are just gone? Like, people don't even think about it anymore?
Host 2 08:05
Yeah, and on that, it's, it feels like in the at least in the 3d printing space for hardware. It's, we're, we're at the point where 3d printers are almost, or actually are at the point as they're a commodity item, especially I would say, the inexpensive resin printers, because you have people that are building like little models and figurines like Warhammer models like that. And these are people who would never would get in 3d printing otherwise. And they're doing it actually to save money and not to, you know, by by the actual legit models.
Host 1 08:43
Yeah, and lately, I noticed that, at least in that side, and the 3d printing, most of the traffic seems to be people sharing pictures of things they printed, and then everyone immediately asking for the STL files. Like, half the folks don't even want to bother learning the tools to come up with things, or someone sending a picture of something and saying, Can someone give me the STL file for this? Or can someone find me the STL file? It's it's, it's really, they can't even Google sounds like you're differentiating,
Though, like the idea of 3d printers versus creating the files to put on the 3d printers. I mean, those are two completely different skill sets. Yeah,
Host 1 09:25
More. What I'm trying to get at is that, at least in the 3d printing side, you've got these printers that people can buy off of Amazon, get it delivered via prime within, you know, a day or two
And or 10 days during the pandemic. Yeah.
Host 1 09:42
And though either either FDM or a resin printer. And the they're literally looking at it as a consumer item, like buying a printer inkjet printer, or, you know, paper cutter or any of these devices.
Host 2 09:58
No, I agree because When I bought my FDM printer, I was I was using it as a hobby. What does
FDM stand for?
Host 2 10:07
It's the one that looks like a glue gun.
I'm saying you should probably differentiate the types are people listening? Sure, go ahead. Oh FDM is fused deposition modeling, where it has the spool of material, it heats it up and it squirts it out and stacks up the lines. Now you're talking about SLA printers, which is kind of well, SLA or lithographic, or resin graphics, probably the best way to put it Yeah, cuz SLE originally was like two converging laser beams and a vat of resin. But those are the printers were the typical way to do it. Now it's held like an LCD panel, Let me shine a UV light through it. And then when we hit one layer at a time, you change the image on the LCD panel on that creates, basically the build layer, and then you go basically, you build it upside down. Yep. And like you have a really high quality of Arwing model that you printed right behind me like from Starfox. And if you dropped it, you'd have wing damage. But it's but you're saying you're saying that those high detail models are appealing to people outside of the basically, I don't want to say mainstream, because let's face it Warhammer 40,000 is not mainstream, but no, it's not mainstream, different niches,
Host 2 11:17
No completely different niches, and they wouldn't use a 3d printer otherwise, like they are using it. And that I was getting to that where when I bought my FDM printer, I was modifying it and building on hardware and that kind of stuff. And then when I bought my resin printer, I'm like, I just want to print stuff. I want to use this like a laser printer. And that thing, that's where that area has gone forth hardware is it's now just like that you
Want model is that it looks like the what's the one that what some would call it sent me anycubic? What's the what's the one that's below anycubic Is the rip off of creators isn't elegoo Or that looks just like my any cubic photon mono,
Host 1 12:01
It's there. And then that kind of leads into a parallel of
Host 2 12:07
This discussion that was would lead into since basically, we're at the point where at least in 3d printing, open source hardware. There's is it hasn't run its course that's where we're leading into this with 3d printing at least has open source hardware ran its course, and is already seeing that trend in other industries with open source hardware.
Well, if you're talking about 3d printers, in just 3d printers, I would say that it has run its course. Because even think about the original mission statement of rap rap was we want people to 3d print RepRap was a rapidly reproducing machine where you'd use the machine to make more machines. That was that was the original mission. Yeah,
Host 1 12:55
It still is their mission. I mean,
Right for I can buy one for $100 off Amazon, right?
Host 1 13:00
I mean, that's what's happened was what has happened now is the commoditization of it. And all the clones and knockoffs of the clones has made it cheap to get. So the people who were involved in RepRap, because they wanted to printer, now they can just get one off
Amazon. I mean, is that any different from people back in the 70s? That would make their own computers, discrete logic, or like Commodore Chem kit or an Altair? 8800. It's like, oh, I want a computer to build this. And nowadays, I can get a computer out of a gumball machine. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing. It's like, you know, Chris, like, you know, 10 years ago, even more than that, you know, like, we were like hanging out, we would like, try to get your MC wire working. We were wrapping nichrome wire, which is what they used to make toast around bolts to make extruders it was extremely jank. And that was only 10 years ago.
Host 1 13:57
Well, well, 2009. That was so yeah,
Not that long ago. And now, it's become quite mainstream. So I would, I would say like this, it's like, going back to the Jesus analogy. It's like if the RepRap people were the evangelicals, they want to convert the world to the religion of 3d printing. I think they succeeded. So they're going around, they're printing Bibles at Kinkos, and craft, and now it's mass market, like everyone,
Host 1 14:25
I don't think that works. Because the RepRap folks still have the same goal, which is machines that can reproduce themselves. And it's not just about having cheap machines that they have a goal, that is machines can reproduce themselves.
I would say now it's more of a hobby, whereas 10 years ago was a necessity.
Host 1 14:47
Right? Yeah. I guess my point is that the the people who were in it for the open nature of it
Host 1 15:00
Lagos Hagen will play with Linux
Host 1 15:01
Now they, they maybe weren't ever in it for the open part of it. And so now that they don't need, they don't need the open stuff because they can just buy one of a dozen Chinese knockoffs. That's what they do. But I think that hurts the open hardware or aspects of it. I mean, it's hardware, the stuff that was open is hurt, because a lot of the people who were in it weren't really in it. And, and now, they're there, it turned out all they wanted was a printer or wanted a cheap printer. And, and now they can get that and without supporting the open side, which is what got them where they are. And I mean, we're talking about 3d printing. But I think
Host 2 15:56
I think you can apply that to a lot of open source hardware. Yeah. Because the big thing is what you're getting out there is when you design something for open source, to be able to develop the next scene, you need money to be able to do that in terms of just building even if you design your labor is free. And for a designer, you still got to build prototypes, and get into production. Now you're getting to the fact that we're now 3d printers are now commodity items that you can go on Amazon and buy a $200 3d printer that actually prints amazingly well compared to the printers. I remember the the model I made a model for for Chris here. Long time ago. That was a a Apollo capsule.
And a different Apollo capsule
Host 2 16:50
Was the Apollo capsule. What was the
Host 1 16:52
Host 2 16:53
Okay. The pocket so was it the nose? The junk?
Host 1 16:57
Oh, the Jughead Jughead
Bomb. Oh, yeah. Pinball, you were gonna that was 2011. Yeah, yeah. Because crystal crystal crystal has. The first was that the first thing you printed on the MC wire? Was the Apollo Command kind
Host 1 17:14
Of printed that looked like something?
Yeah. So it still hasn't it looks like it looks like a melted crayon.
Host 2 17:21
But in then, so yeah, I'm getting my stories mixed up. But yeah, so that he printed a Apollo capsule. Apollo 13 capsule, I think sort of was while they're
All the same. Yeah. But that was one blew up. Sure.
Host 2 17:39
But, but it was all melted and didn't really have any features. And then then Chris printed the second model, like couple years later, and it's like, like, 10 years later. It's like, perfect. Like, it looks like it's injection molded. Right? And it's just amazing. The difference. I think it was.
Well, Parker, think about it like this way like you're what's what's the guy's name? Alexander Graham Bell. And you're like, Harland roof
Host 2 18:04
On still Oh, civil war film.
And now here we are. We have four people talking over a computer and recording it with video. It's evolution.
Host 2 18:14
We're doing a really bad job at that right now. But yes, yes.
Host 1 18:19
I think the point that I'm trying to make and kind of related with Parker just saying is like e 3d, which is another company involved in 3d printing, they recently published a entry on their blog about how they're, they feel, I mean, I'm paraphrasing, everyone's welcome to go read it themselves. It's very well written. And but it's about their IP, and how they're taking actions to protect their IP, because they've said in their posts that they like to design things. And then they like to make those things. And then they like to sell them for a profit because those profits feed back into the design and manufacturing, so then get better at it. But other companies come along, and they don't spend any time inventing anything. They just take the designs, make them sell them. Well, that cuts them off at the knees because they can't continue to keep developing new things. And that that hurts the whole community. Every time someone buys a knockoff of an E three,
And there's tons of knockoffs on Amazon. It's ridiculous. Like, I accidentally bought a knockoff e three e 3d off Amazon. I didn't even realize it was a knockoff until I tried to fix it. Then I realized it didn't have a copper core. And I'm like this is a knockoff. Then I bought another one. Another knockoff? No. The second one also had a copper core or did have a copper core arms. So Chris,
Host 1 19:51
I think what you were getting into is, is sort of exactly the crux of the whole problem there. And in fact, I googled it Before we started this podcast, I just Googled open source hardware. And just I wanted to see what is the internet gonna feed me when you just search open source hardware. And I came up with with two results. And the first, like, the first of many results was like, what Ben was saying, it's the evangelical stuff. It's the whole, hey, we're going to sell open source idea to you, we're going to sell this this concept of open source. And then the second thing that you get from Google searches is just a bunch of people saying, Do you have open source XYZ, because I want it. And what's interesting is, there's not like that, that sort of that purity that you're talking about, of the community coming together to actually create something, there really wasn't a lot of that. So. So if somebody gets like an inkling for searching for open source, whatever, on Google, you sort of get fed a concept, and then a bunch of just, I want, I want I want, and it's, I mean, it's exactly what you're saying there.
Host 1 20:58
Yeah, I'm like another example to show like, be going beyond the realm of 3d printing i, this will be relevant to you, but like, I've been buying Euro Mac Eurorack modules, and like musical instruments makes wonderful and unique and fascinating modules. And I don't know if it's Emily, or Mo, I don't know if that's pronounced the designers name. But she basically recently announced she's retiring. And they're not gonna have any new products after beats. And the, they'll still sell old modules, but she's done designing new stuff. And I can't help but wonder if you look on lines, you will see so many clones of mutable instrument. Odd is because it's all open. It's all open hardware, and clones. I mean, you can get the firmware, the schematics, everything. So our people, just the fact that so many people just take and take and take, and they're not giving anything back. I mean, I'm sure she had a complicated reasons for retiring. But I can't help but think that after a lifetime of giving, and maybe not receiving that, you just say, You know what, I don't need this anymore. And then that, that kills, that hurts all of us. That's that's
Host 1 22:30
A purity I'm talking about. It kills the purity. Yeah.
Host 2 22:33
And I mean, that's what happened with Ben and I's. The first Pinball Controller redesign, which was the Pinhead controller is actually a very aligns with this is, it was all open source. And we open sourced it because we wanted people to take it and improve on it, learn from it. And then a manufacturer in China basically ripped us off. And fortunately, none of those came stateside. So it didn't really hurt our sales. Well, almost none, almost none. Not Not that we care about I guess. But one of the things was with open source where I wanted to put in is, the whole point of open source is to learn, at least in hardware, for me is like, I like looking at open source designs. So I can see what other parts people using, how they're using it, and how their circuits are working. So I can learn from that and become a better designer myself. And, and so that was actually one of the things is when this this company over in China ripped us off on this design. I said, Hey, all you got to do because we were using creative license. Oh, was creative commons with like, ShareAlike. So like, acknowledgement, yeah, so all you got to do is like, you can copy it, just like you got poster is gonna stay open source. And you got to acknowledge that you copied us all you gotta do. And I didn't do any of that. And that kind of for me kind of killed. Like before that all my stuff is open source. Like you can go on my GitHub, everything's open source. After that, I have actually pretty much nothing. It just kills it. It kills your passion.
I think there's an intersection where you're like, Ooh, I want to save the world. And I want to make this open source design that's free for everyone. Blah, blah, blah. And then once you make money from it, you're like, Oh, I like making money from this thing. And then capitalism, you know, Squeaks its greasy tendrils in. But then you're like, Oh, I'm making money from this thing. And then someone else comes along and says open source. They took my money. Now,
Host 2 24:48
Think about this is is the interest didn't abide by the license that we put out, which was you gotta acknowledge it and just post your improvements. So guess what? I can go look at your improvements and go that's a good idea. I should incorporate myself,
They had a very good sound amplifier on that machine I played it,
Host 2 25:06
It would have been nice to look at it design. And I've heard from
Host 1 25:10
A few folks like open hardware folks that are who have said, you know, one of the sources of frustration for them is they opened up a design to share it. And then the community isn't sharing back. Like, if you look at the top contributors, it's basically them. And they go, Well, I put in this effort to make it open. And basically all I got were cloners. And that's it. And then you go, Well, why go through that effort to make something open and support it? And then if you're the only person who's supporting it, and the only other participants are people stealing, stealing, but either cloning or, or stealing your design, again, that saps the enthusiasm. I mean, yeah, Cuz usually,
Host 2 26:02
Since you are the designer and open source enabler, I guess, it's a good way for it is, you also have to support those clones.
Host 1 26:13
Yeah, I guess. Yeah. And like I thought about another recently bought the Castor and Pollux module from wintergreen. And she also has, like, everything is open. And it's great. And in that case, when I bought it, I wasn't sure I would participate myself. I mean, I appreciate that it's open. But it's funny. I, I don't know if I was going to be able to participate. But I sent her an email. We're in your I mean, I bought it. I paid her for it. But then I sent her an email saying, Hey, thank you. Thank you for making this device. Thank you for opening it. I know that isn't necessarily easy. And it can't isn't maybe always rewarding. But I made that effort to just recognize and say, I appreciate what you do. And I just think that if you are relying on anything that's open hardware will open software to but if there's something that's open, and that you're using it, you know, man, just take a minute to write the person, a note saying thank you.
Host 1 27:26
So perhaps this is distilled capitalism. But giving somebody money for the thing that they created is in a way saying thank you for what you did.
Host 1 27:37
Yeah. And I did that. And I said, Thank you, because I just figured, if you want to see more of something, you you've got to reckon you got to save. You know, you got to own up. Yeah.
Well, maybe that's a problem with open source. it conflicts with our inherent greed and capitalistic nature, where it's like, I made this thing. Ooh, look at all these lights. Look at all this accolade. Oh, look, here's $1. What can you use to pay your rent?
Host 2 28:09
The shiny lights?
I don't know. That's the
Host 2 28:14
Badge life creeping in. I
Mean, I mean, that's the same thing with us, Parker. Like we were doing those. We had those boards were like they were open source. And then as soon as someone like took it without acknowledging it, we're like, close everything down. Give us all the monies? Well, no, we're both unabashed capitalists, which
Host 2 28:30
Is different. Yeah. But it wasn't about the money because it wasn't going to hurt us. Right. But it was the fact that they that and they denied it. I think they denied it. But it was the I think it was been, I would assume that at least when they were called out, they would at least just acknowledged license because it would have been easy to acknowledge license. You got all you have to say it's like yes, we use the schematic from the pin hack. And then
Here's our schematic. Well, they also copied the code.
Host 2 29:00
Yeah, that's, that's easy to do. Yeah. It's so easy for them just to follow that.
First, I was actually honored. I'm like, Oh my God. It's finally happened. We've been ripped off by someone in China. It was like a badge of honor it was like getting my cherry popped. But then when they were like, oh, no, we didn't copy this from you. And I'm like, oh, that's Yeah, yeah.
Host 2 29:25
That was that was the start going down. I was sort
Of it I'm yelling timber. But bad song in a while.
Host 1 29:32
I think if if we consider the other possible scenario if they had said,
Host 2 29:40
A ha ha Han. We lost everyone. I'm not liking this. I'm not liking this because we just lost audio. I
Host 1 29:48
Don't know why I only go
Host 1 29:49
This is Audio Jesus with an inserted Editor's Note. I removed about four minutes of insanity. But I've left you with a few seconds so you can see what I had to do.
Host 2 30:00
Is the first time I've ever heard
Of SDR own?
Host 1 30:08
Oh boy. I need more beer.
Host 2 30:11
Yeah get another beer. Um, what
Happens you record on a potato? Chris you become a modem.
Host 2 30:17
But listen me Oh man.
Host 1 30:25
I know what I was talking about because I can't another knock
Host 2 30:28
Off. Josh can probably
Just Jesus healed audio,
Host 2 30:33
The audio. It's not the first time this stuff has happened we're even the fifth
Time you can bring the audio back from the dead. Like Lazarus.
Host 1 30:42
We need to send audio Jesus a six pack of beer. Yeah, for sure. We turned this water to beer for you.
Host 1 30:50
I'd go with you turns the audio one into diarrhea.
Host 2 30:55
That's all working. I am not getting audio through the move to anymore. No.
Host 1 31:00
So here I've deleted a few more minutes of technical malfeasance and decided to bring you back in in the middle of their conversation about Christian music and rainbow songs because it's kind of amazing how
Many Jesus signs are there? Jesus he knows more than enough. You know
Host 1 31:15
What I wonder? Is like pop song. How many songs how many Jesus left Chicago?
Host 1 31:20
Did you come here to play Jesus?
Host 1 31:22
What was your What was your thing the other day Ben?
Host 1 31:25
What I wonder about isn't songs about Jesus but songs about rainbows because you know like the rainbow connection song as he says why are there so many songs about rainbow because there aren't any songs on Rainbow right? That's what I'm saying. It's like wait, I'm
Making these are their songs. Oh, wait, what was that song from relativize with the rainbow.
Host 1 31:43
Somewhere Over the
Rainbow. So there's
Host 1 31:48
Two songs if you include the song connection, which is a song about wire there's so many songs will ring? That's a good question.
Host 1 31:54
We will wait. Are you talking about a song that includes a rainbow or a song about what he's
Talking about the song? The lines are Muppet song.
Host 1 32:03
That song? Yeah, yeah. Oh, connection.
Host 2 32:05
Host 1 32:06
Host 2 32:08
The Hawaiian dude.
Host 1 32:10
Well, that's over the rainbow dude. Yeah, I mean, that's the same song just sung by Hawaiian dude.
Rain. Rain is a common, you know, which we should put we should put this in the pile.
Host 1 32:20
But I'm still trying to figure out the rainbow.
Are we putting this in the podcast, which is not in the packet?
Host 1 32:25
So we could be?
Host 1 32:27
Streaming? What about every song by the band rainbow.
Host 2 32:31
Look up. We're gonna pick up exactly where we left off.
Host 1 32:33
No, we're not 123
Host 2 32:37
Okay, okay, we're
Back. We're back. We're back.
Host 2 32:40
Yeah, so chat. Help us get back on track. Real quick. I do like this comment earlier, which is a DJ says from chat. Openness is good for repeatability and maintainability. A CC non commercial license allows people to create a copy of a thing, but not steal your profit from it. That is exactly what we were trying to do with the pin tech.
And I see the next comment after that says, See see, does that equal China copy? What was not supposed to read that? You can read that one? No, that's me. Oh, no. I mean, you know, it's totally a thing. Like, what's it? What's, how do they say it like, they make yours during the day and there's at night. I mean, it happens. I mean, that's part of life.
Host 1 33:25
And I think my kind of my feeling on that is like, we can talk about Creative Commons and this license and that license. But what I've noticed, again, and again and again, is that when companies start getting their designs, just wholesale taken because either someone doesn't honor the and they don't like some legal wherewithal to fight it. What happens, I've noticed is that they open hardware, like we'll just say, Okay, I give up, and then that's it. It's over. It's done. And, and to me, every time we lose one person, it hurts because to me, all these open hardware projects are like, gems. I mean, they're precious. And we need to, like, support them as best as we can. Because that's what you want. I mean, there I am. I am always just so happy when I go to a website and see that, oh, there's the source code. And there's the repo with the, you know, the file so that I could reproduce the schematics if I wanted to. And I just, I'm always overjoyed because yeah, supportability maintainability, the ability to fix it, and it's just, they just, it's just to me, it seems like it's so easy for them just to get wiped out.
Well, here's a guy. Okay, devil's advocate. If it's open source, why should you complain if someone copied it?
Host 2 34:53
It depends on advance.
I see Stephen did a thumbs up. Again, I'm playing devil's advocate I'm not Yeah, I'm not assigning morality. I'm just asking a question.
Host 2 35:03
Yeah. So for me, it's all about, I've said this a couple of times in the podcast already, but it's, it's to learn. The whole reason for open source is to spread your knowledge, allow other people to learn from you. And then people improve on that. And then you learn back
To college, and learn how to do something from a professor and then make money from that knowledge. That's not the same as stealing from open source. Now I'm really getting in the weeds. Yeah. Have you ever off the chats? Like Ben is drunk, go home?
Host 2 35:38
No, the awesome blossom says we need a Batman for open source.
Host 1 35:45
I mean that. But there's some truth behind that, right? There's no like governing body or someone who is an authority, right?
Host 2 35:51
What's the society called? Is it Oss?
Host 1 35:54
Oh, voice Oh, sh, open Harvard? Or oh, God,
Host 2 36:01
Open source associated Source Hardware Association, something like that. Yeah. They tried to do that. I don't think anyone up. So my opinion only I don't think a lot of people really care about that.
But if it's, here's the thing. If it's open source, that means, you know, we have all of the Creative Commons Attribution, Sharealike, blah, blah, blah. But it's still out there. It's kind of like an honor system, you know,
Host 2 36:25
Because all it takes is a process where, for example, that company in China that ripped off the pin heck, right, is we had no legal recourse to do anything about the license, no, one thing we can do is if it came stateside, then we can block it. Because all we even though
The cost of us trying to block it would greatly exceed any damages. Yeah,
Host 2 36:45
Well, for that, yes. Yeah. Because there was only a couple that actually made stateside because we would have to go through customs, basically, and say they infringe on copyrights. And then we could actually, I don't think your actual words,
What I'm what I'm getting at is, like you have open source software, like, Oh, this is open for everyone. But when you start complaining about the fact that someone stole it as we did, I mean, isn't that kind of giving up the trope of altruism and going into capitalism, like into jealousy, where it's like, where's my cut? Like, no, it wasn't even
Host 2 37:16
About that. They just, they just disregarded the license. And they needed to be true to the license, right.
But what if that guy would have cut us both a check for 50 grand, then would be care,
Host 2 37:28
Then they would be admitting to what the license was about, then I
Could have not bought a new Tesla with that money. Now,
Host 2 37:36
The thing is, if they cut us a check, they would be admitting that one they copied us, which is part of the license is admitting that you can't be Deus, and then open sourcing what they built. So we would have to give up that second part.
Host 1 37:50
Right. Yeah, and I think that's kind of what I'm saying is that if you want to keep it's like an ecosystem, where basically people are taking advantage of the openness to profit off of it, but not feeding back into I mean, there's even there's there's been projects where your point, you know, like a couple other companies in China where they'll make changes and they don't submit the source back to the to the source trees or anything, they don't use share the code, because their attitudes, but it's a risk for them to because they benefit from the fact that they were able to start off with someone else's work
And they don't have to pay any engineers right and as you talk about these people are they're not they're stealing the work from like, you know, sole proprietor someone in the bedroom or whatever. They're not stealing from Microsoft or Google or Apple or some corporation that you know when they're walking around money can sue them into oblivion. Yeah, the normal person can do that.
Host 1 38:53
I mean, the person I mentioned earlier winter blue man she's one person shop I mean, you've still someone clones her design. That's like your food money you know, that's not she's not driving around. Well, I don't know what she tries on sanctions or anything, but I just know that that a lot of these small time hardware, people are already not living amazing not
Like Barker who has a garage with two air conditioners in it. I'm gonna I guess that makes me a one percenter you know your point 05 percenter.
Host 2 39:35
I haven't garage with an air conditioner. But you
Got me beat another thing along you don't need Oh,
Host 2 39:41
You don't need an air conditioner up in Boise. Yes,
Mike. You've had my garage and it's hot. You actually think you're right. I'm not gonna put one in.
Host 1 39:51
Another thought that I had was like I tried to support projects off of TV a lot. And I've noticed lately you guys For me, I've noticed a lot of projects that are basically on hiatus or sleeping. And it's usually because of the hard shortages. And I wonder if the PERT shortages are indirectly also hurting open hardware projects because if you can't even get because you're manufacturing limited quantities and selling them razor thin margins and now you can't even get the parts you need to sell what you have. But again if someone is able to and takes your design and runs with it, you know, so I wonder if like the parts shortages might be somehow kind of feeding into what's hurting some of these open development you
Host 2 40:43
Definitely see that in microcontrollers, especially in the Arduino world where you see ATMEGA 320 Peas are like out of stock everywhere.
Really? Yeah, that's one of the most in stock chips and I've looked it's out of stock everywhere oh well again yeah 10 minutes it pass
Host 2 41:01
It all the same D especially the same D 21. G's are our stocking right apparently they stick those in those new Python ti 84 ce pluses you hear this? Yeah. You didn't break down one?
No, I didn't. I've been trying to buy one but I can't
Host 1 41:16
Break by him. So I'm gonna chat says there's 3000 in stock. Oh, he'll buy him right
Host 2 41:21
Now. Mega 320 apiece Biomin sell resell on eBay right now. That chip is so ancient. You have an old The thing is all those wafers are out are hard to manufacture it now because there's just no stock of them.
Host 1 41:35
And so STM you can't find an STM to save your life.
Host 2 41:38
I think I think that's because STMS are using a lot of industry because they are like the almost cheapest microcontroller that's made by a reputable manufacturer.
What about Freescale? That's big for cars? Or NXP?
Host 2 41:51
Um, yeah, those are allowed to?
Here's a question to completely change topics I see like Intel or AMD, probably, or Intel, you probably know where I'm going this year very self fulfilling the same? Well, these other car manufacturers needed to get out of the dark ages, and start stop making these primitive chips. They need to make things with the highest transistor counts we saw, ya know,
Host 2 42:19
We should be you should be using hardware that. So my this
They aren't, it's already bad enough that we put 50,000 microcontrollers in every car. Because if you're missing one microcontroller, that car doesn't go off the assembly line. But if they make it even more complicated, like oh, it's not just like 20 armor controllers, it's like 20 microcontrollers, with like three nanometer process like, yeah, because that's what it's all about. Because Intel, what they really want to do is they want to use their plans to make the microcontrollers of their like three nanometer process or whatever, instead of like the 80 nanometer process at or water modern arm. It's just It's just they're just trying to like get money. Yeah,
Host 2 42:56
It's one of those. Because the whole thing with the plan to build chip fabs here in America is those are only going to be high end fabs, they're going to be the 15 nanometer or sub size. They're not going to build the Sandy 21 G's that we
Need. And they won't because the profit margin won't be high enough.
Host 2 43:19
It won't be high enough. That's exactly why don't ya DJ and chat, stn 30 G's have just completely evaporated. What's interesting is as long as going with the 80 Mega SAM D 21 G's is that's a chip that is on the Arduino Nano know what Arduino is that arrow Adreno. Zero has that that Sandy chip on. And that's actually what we started prototyping with on the pin guitar, which is the next generation Pinball Controller that we designed. And then, when all of this was going down, we started exploring other options of microcontrollers. And if you just took a couple of jogs in the datasheet, to a different section, and we're like, oh, our code will fit on that microcontroller. Barely, barely, but it does fit. And so we can switch my switch to a different line, giving away our secrets, not saying which one it is. It's not
The ad, I mean.
Host 2 44:25
Now, first of all, it's already out of stock, so don't worry about it.
Host 1 44:28
I've read I've read multiple articles about pretty much every manufacturer trained like Tesla's had the same problem. Initially, they were doing okay. And now they've had to start re engineering their designs to use different stuff that's in stock. So and that's expensive.
Host 1 44:48
We have some products at work right now that we quoted out processors and they're asking over $50 per processor, and at that point, we're like, well, it's worth redesigning the entire product. to just use a different processor that isn't stuck,
Host 2 45:02
And never got off topic from open source horrible ranting. It's also important. Oh, I
Host 1 45:06
Would say like an open hardware. My last thought is like, find an open hardware project, in support it because if you want to, if you care, and you want to see more of it, find a way to support it, even if that's just giving them a hug, or I guess you can't drink COVID But or send them a nice email, or by
I mean, you're not gonna give me a hug, Chris. I don't want to hug from you, by the way.
Host 1 45:36
I don't think you do. OpenCart per diem.
Well, I also don't like hugs. Yeah, but no, I did open I do open hardware. Not for the oh, can Oh, this is my Can I talk about capitalism? Sure. Like when I do things like, what my son's never heard of that. What is that? Ah, is this weird thing? I mean, you use Zoomer kids might not have heard about it. It's like, if you have a skill that other people don't, you can make money for it. I know. It's crazy, right? Like doctors and dentists and stuff. No, but I'll have people like, email me and they're like, Hey, we see like your sensibility controllers? Will you give us a 3d files for? And I'm like, no. Because I make money building these. So and you know what? You know what? I'm just being selfish. That's how I make my money. And while you know, some of it are like with my latency monitors actually had a company in China buy one of those. And I'm like, Oh, God, I sell this to them. Although actually it and video rip off part of it. Like the time of flight? No,
Host 2 46:40
You got talking to you? Oh, I
Can't say that. No, no, you can say it. I don't care. I don't know if they ripped it off. But they made something very similar. Like with their light sensor, I'll use the photo. Well, I don't want to get in the weeds of that
Host 2 46:50
In the weeds. Well, it's an engineering podcast. Oh, okay. Then we're all about
The weeds. I was doing the time of flight sensor where you have this equipment that was talking to you microphone, you'd have this equipment that would sense when the testing you know, the whoever's testing a video game would push a button, like, I'm going to fire my gun, I'm going to jump. And then the video game engine would like draw squared and screen like, oh, the player has done this or that. And then we put a sensor on the screen that detects when that happens. You can detect the total time of flight from the user pressing the button to the controller, you know, interpreting the button, putting it into like a serial form, putting it into microcontroller, put it over Wi Fi, blah, blah, blah, five stages of pipeline and the engine. And then finally, after the InterAmerican version, it appears on your screen. Right. So we had a sensor for that Nike John Carmack suggested I do that, like nine years ago. Anyway, now, Nvidia has a device that does the same thing. And I also sold them a couple of my units. So I kind of wonder if they are inspired by it. But you know, what, if Nvidia is inspired by me, that's cool. I'm okay with that. But oh, gossamer for Steven.
Host 1 47:52
Well, okay, so that's, that's sort of, along along the lines of what we're what we're talking about. If Chris, you mentioned, like, if you find a open hardware project support it, I think it's a way to go a little bit further than that. If you have learned from an open source or an open hardware project, then I would say support that. And I, you know, I know personally, I've learned from a ton of them just like, hey, I don't know how to do XYZ circuit. I searched Google for it, I find some project that was willing to supply their schematic and then I get to analyze it, look through it. And I became a better engineer, because they posted something like that. That's a great situation above and beyond like, even if you need or don't need whatever that project is supported, because they you learn something from them.
Host 1 48:41
Yeah, I think that's a great point. That's that's kind of what I'm getting at is I think, if you think about it as a, as I said, an ecosystem like you we need to, you know, take care of it. Otherwise, you might not have what you took for granted.
Host 2 49:00
Yeah, it's actually balls. Way back to the beginning of this podcast where Stephen said, the first thing you search for when you search for open source hardware is the philosophy behind open source hardware. And so if you want open source hardware to exist, you need to 100% support open source hardware, especially stuff that you use, like if you're using Arduino, you should either one contribute to the Arduino codebase or two to buy Arduino hardware, legit ones. If you are using Arduino and you don't do those two things
Host 1 49:40
You may not have
Host 2 49:41
Yeah, you might not have an Arduino in the future that you can leverage for your projects. What about
Projects that create custom code using Arduino and then sell it for third party third parties.
Host 2 49:52
So a lot of them do support or either funneled back money through donation or they use you can donate It was a way of giving back. So yeah, that'd be number three, donate back. So when at Dynamic reception, which is the company that I worked for with Chris church, co founder and founder of Mac fab, we built a or I didn't build by helped finish up the design on a time lapse controller for cameras that use an Arduino. Do we MOBA things those the one before that, you know, and we bought legit Arduinos because we use their codebase. And we wanted to make sure that, hey, we can still buy these hardware and we support Oh, actually, that company was all open source. And we actually had the same problem. People were copying us all the time.
Yeah, it's a double edged sword. I don't really know. No, it's the solution is hard.
Host 2 50:50
The solution is hard. And there's also I know, we're running out of time here. But there was something that Chris said a long time ago that I just remembered about, which was the ramps board that's in 3d printers.
Yeah. And yeah. lt
Host 2 51:03
Machine. Yeah. And I think it was, this is also paraphrasing, but that designer said, I don't care if they copy, because it makes my platform, the stamp the standard, which is another way to think about it. Yeah, I
Host 1 51:20
Was gonna add that as a counterpoint because I actually spoke with a matt RepRap when you're the the Midwest RepRap Festival, and I asked him how he felt about all the cones. And he said, he said, His attitude was they're going to copy me anyways. He said, But you know, he's he said, You can't stop it, he said, but by copying my opening up my design, they're copying it as it isn't. It becomes the standard. So when people are running software for it, like the Marlin firmware, its target is the Ram Sport, because that's the board that's everywhere. And now the RAMBo board and and all the other forms. Well,
You couldn't say though, some egos into that.
Host 1 52:06
Yeah, he wasn't really in it for the ego, he but he said to me flat out that he said he would rather have his platform be the standard, because then he can benefit from the software side.
Yeah, getting well, no, no,
Host 2 52:19
I agree. Benefit. No. And I agree, because it's the open source software is probably the strongest it's ever been. Open source software is quite as strong as like, You got Microsoft supporting it. Microsoft supporting Linux like
That? Well, because Microsoft is eventually going to switch to Linux. I'm just gonna say that right now. 10 years from now, you'll be like, Wow, Ben's a genius.
Host 2 52:45
Give me that as like their kernel. Yes, it will happen. Okay. I can see that happen. But regardless is you have a lot of you have a lot of companies actually throwing a lot of weight that have been traditionally very closed source into open source software. So I that would make a lot of sense for if you could make your hardware for a certain sector, the the de facto piece of hardware, and then you can get people writing a lot more software, because that's the thing is, it seems easier for people to I think the biggest problem with open source hardware is iterating on hardware is expensive. Building physical things is expensive. Whereas compiling a new piece of code is literally just pressing a button on your screen. And I think that might be the biggest division there is it costs a couple 100 bucks to run a new prototype versus pressing a button to see if your code works.
Host 1 53:46
But even with that
Host 1 53:47
Knowledge base that goes behind a chunk of software, I'm not at all saying that it's simpler than hardware, but the knowledge base to be able to learn that I believe, is the barrier of entry is a little bit easier with software than it is with hardware. And so if you find open hardware, and you have no idea anything about hardware, it's you're gonna have a huge learning curve to be able to get into it and actually do something with it.
Host 1 54:18
Then I'll say going back to my point about supporting people like with Ultra machine, I know he at least the last time I talked to him, he has a kind of laissez faire attitude about foreigners but I still buy my stuff from him I still buy things from him because I want to support him directly. And that seems like a great way to do that. So you know, I really just everyone you know, often you don't have the budget for certain things, whatever. But I just want to encourage people to find a way to support
Host 2 54:52
You can also give back as a ways like if you need to buy in a $5 we know versus $30 We know because by get bit all you have to do so well maybe like mine $5 general and then give $2 to our to the Arduino foundation. Yeah,
Well they say that like if you go into like Adafruit, right? And like look at all their drivers, which they have an amazing plethora of. They write a lot of software for them. Exactly. And they say please support Adafruit by buying one of our official products. Same kind of thing. Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So should we talk about sponges to
Host 2 55:28
Finish this off? No, you can go listen to the previous episode you were on.
What about meatloaf recipes?
Host 2 55:38
No. Big we'll wrap up this episode with that. The we talk about meatloaf. recipes on loss. I don't think we did. I think we talked about meatloaf the the the single I get to meet meatloaf two months ago. He's not dead yet. I thought you know he's still alive. He's not either. So alright, so we'll do this last story. And then we'll quit the podcast. So
Host 1 56:04
Okay, I have to say I really hate the fact that like the one thing, the defining characteristic of him has always been his weight. Like, ever. Like if you watch like behind his voice, it's awesome. Like 90% of it is like he gained a lot of weight. He lost a lot of weight. He gained a lot of weight. He was
Always a large person. Yeah, that's where he got the name meatloaf. Because he was like a high school like, not a quarterback where there's like a defensive end or something. And he was like the meatloaf. Because he was like a big guy. He glued a whole offensive line together. Well, no. Well, yeah. And then he would have you know, the line is like, I was a hell of a tag and then a varsity block and whenever Oh, make other brown down rock and then have a Saturday night like he says, Have you ever thought about
Host 2 56:52
Doing a parody meatloaf album? The parody
Meatloaf album? It would be a tribute meatloaf album. Well,
Host 2 56:59
What do you just listen to meatloaf?
This involves hardware. Right. So I'll tell you a story. So it was the first public showing of our new board system Parker. Okay, dependents are? It was his homework and venture totally
Host 2 57:15
Not pitching the pennant tours platform. No,
I'm just self intelligently telling you the story. But it involves hardware. So it's the this horror convention down in our South by the airport in Chicago. Right. And Charlie's taking the Halloween game which has our board in it. Right? Okay. It's like our son or daughter. Whatever gender it is.
Host 2 57:38
It's a it's a piece of hardware because then
It's ours. So it didn't have gender. It's it's a minotaur is a monster. Right? It's a monster anyway. So he's like, you remember that? What what you will mistake for like the Oh, yeah. So I had to go down there. So the game was already on the floor of this convention, which is going to open like, I don't know, 2pm on a Friday. And Charlie's like, Oh, hey, Ben. No, you know, if you come down and make sure the game is good to go, oh, we get to be meatloaf. And I'm like, Okay, I'll do it. Right, because like two and a half hours from where I live. So I go down there. And we're sitting there I got my soldering iron. So I'm sitting there we rip over the game. And like we're soldering
Host 2 58:19
Inside of it, and then the solder by the lights of the pinball machine.
You mean like the dashboard? Lights? Yes. Okay. So, you know, as usual shit, where it's like, we're like soldering the machine to on the floor. Yeah. Just to make sure because we had that issue, which I won't I won't go into detail. But we had an issue. We're like, Okay, well, I guess the game is ready to run. And then all these kids come up. And these are whapping. The flippers and I'm thinking, well, this is good. You know, if it's going to fail, it's going to fail and kids are going over the flippers. Anyway, so like later that night, the show organizer who also bought one of the machines was like, Okay, guys, you guys can go hang out with meatloaf now. Right? And so I'm sitting there outside of outside of the show. And security guys are like security guards like, No, man, you can't go in you got to stay here. You can't go in you got to stay here. And I'm like, I can go in. And then like, they're like, No, you can't go in, because you already went outside the doors and I wasn't drunk. I was later. That's a diode door. Yeah, I was like a diode door, that hot redhead. And so I'm sitting there and I'm just waiting. And so Charlie comes out and Charlie. Charlie's movie Pinball is like, Hey, Ben, what's the problem? And I'm like, they will let me back inside Charlie's like, oh, I don't know. And so then he calls the show organizer, like the main guy, right? And so on. The show organizer comes up. He's like, Yeah, it's okay. These guys are with me. The security guy was like, Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't know. I didn't know like, although himself. Like don't worry about a man amount of Karen right. So we go inside, and then we're hanging out with meatloaf right? So he says autograph table, we're just talking to him. And thing is he's got his like, I don't know if he's like, agent or his handler over here. And she, she's like Mr. loathe your wife. Well, we've been hanging out with them for a while. And then she's like, Okay, your wife is, we've got a table for you. And dinner will be ready for you at the restaurant in the hotel, on the third floor, whatever. And whenever you're ready, or bah, bah, bah. So we're talking to me, lo if we were like, oh, you know, would you like a pinball machine? Or whatever you say? Yeah, that's cool, man. I heard Alice Cooper has one. That sounds great, man. They were talking for a while. And then I've worn Charlie ahead of time that I would ask this. So okay, so you can Google this anyone who's still listening to the podcast? You can Google this? Yeah, I'm just going for Parker. I don't care. There's this. It's either lifetime or a&e or one of the like, you know, like housewife channels, HGTV. Yeah, there's a there's a series called The Haunting of blank. And it's like they take these celebrities who had to deal with ghosts in their past. And they talk about it. So they got like The Haunting of Hilary Swank Oh, meatloaf did one of those there's one called The Haunting of meatloaf is actually going to have a meal. It's called the meatloaf. You can go on YouTube, and type in The Haunting of meatloaf. And there was a result. It's like a Hallmark Channel show. And so it's like the studio, which is like an old house that they recorded the first battle of the hell album in and he's like, Man, this place is filled with ghosts. And so what they do in the show The Haunting of whoever, they go back to the location and the celebrity faces their demons, quite literally. Well, demons are different than ghosts as far as that mythology goes. But anyway, submit meatloaf is like, I'm not afraid of you anymore. In the TV show. We made the number three album of all time in here. I'm not afraid of you. He's like trash talking to go. So anyway, that's that's the show. So we're talking to meatloaf and we're like, ask him if he will ever want to make a pin or whatever. Anyway, I'm like, I have to ask. So it's just me talking to meatloaf. What's the deal with the haunting of meatloaf in his eyes go wide as saucers. He's like, Oh, man, that that place was super haunted man. And then he just starts talking about ghosts for like half an hour. He said he was like, You know what? You ever walk through the streets of New York City? I'm like, Yeah, I've been there. You probably walked past a ghost talk. So anyway, so his handler who was like this pleasant woman, you know, she's like, she's like, kind of like, she's kind of like, you know, she's not mad at us. It's like she's concerned because meatloaf is still talking about ghosts. So, so, Charlie and I are like, okay,
Because this is my experiment. Like, when he talked to a celebrity. Like if you meet William Shatner, you don't talk about Star Trek. You're talking about horses, right? Or like something alums? No, not random something they like a lot. Okay, that would be love. He loves ghosts. Anyway, so we're like, Okay, well, you're white. We're, we were saying, We're gonna let you go. Your wife's waiting for you, you know, to get your dinner. And so we're walking back. So we're walking back to the main like courtyard or wherever the elevator and meatloaf is still talking about ghosts, like the whole talk. So and we get to the escalator. And we actually deliberately, even though we were going up to the bar on the same level, he was going to, we deliberately stayed one level below because we didn't want him to get in trouble with his wife. Right. So he's going up the escalator and he's still looking off the edge of the escalator. He's looking at the edge of the escalator talking down to us. He's like, bla bla bla bla ghost, heroic. Okay, have a good evening with your wife, sir.
Host 2 1:04:07
Has he ever had a song about ghosts? I don't know.
Host 1 1:04:10
He needs I could see him being in his hotel room that night. And he wakes up and there's a floating casserole
Host 2 1:04:22
How about the deal with open source hardware?
Nothing at all.
Host 2 1:04:27
So that was the Mac fan engineering podcast and we're your hosts Mark Dolman.
Host 1 1:04:32
And Steven Craig and we have guests
Chris Craft, Ben hack
Host 1 1:04:36
And audio Jesus later everyone. Take it easy.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai