- Right To Repair
- Ease of opening for repairs
- This sounds great but I have some thoughts
- Reason why phones are hard to open now
- Security screws only keep out people that probably shouldn’t be opening the device anyways
- Ultrasonic welding and potting?
- Access to manuals
- What if repair manuals don’t exist for a product?
- Small and medium volume products don’t have the revenue or volume to make this kind of documentation
- Schematics, Circuit Diagrams, and Firmware Accessible
- What if the schematic is the secret sauce?
- Schematics are easily reverse engineered from a PCB assembly.
- What mechanics will be put in place to prevent cloning?
- Hardware Vs Software
- Make all contracts clearly identify which elements of the machine are not included in the sale
- Do not allow companies to create contract language (End User License Agreements) that modify or limit support options in the future
- Most of the problems the Right to Repair movement wants to fix could be solved here
- If this was more upfront to customers then they could make a better purchasing decision
- Parts and Tools
- Make service parts and tools available at non-discriminatory pricing to equipment owners and third parties.
- Integrate Design for Repair principles into eco-design product design practices.
- DFR – Design for Recycle
- Right to Repair VS Right to be Repaired
- It’s easy to say we should have a right to repair something but is it OK to force companies to make something repairable?
- Ease of opening for repairs
- Non Fungible Token
Special thanks to whixr over at Tymkrs for the intro and outro!
About The Hosts
Parker Dillmann is MacroFab's Co-Founder, and Lead ECE with backgrounds in Embedded System Design, and Digital Signal Processing. He got his start in 2005 by hacking Nintendo consoles into portable gaming units. He also runs the blog, longhornengineer.com, where he posts his personal projects, technical guides, and appnotes about board layout design and components. Parker graduated with a BS in Electrical and Computer Engineering from the University of Texas.
Stephen Kraig began his electronics career by building musical oriented circuits in 2003. Stephen is an avid guitar player and, in his down time, manufactures audio electronics including guitar amplifiers, pedals, and pro audio gear. Stephen graduated with a BS in Electrical Engineering from Texas A&M University.
Host 1 00:11
Welcome to the Mecca fab engineering podcast. We are guests zap.
Host 1 00:15
And Hi, Ron.
Host 2 00:16
And we're your hosts Parker, Dolman.
Host 1 00:18
And Steven Craig.
Host 2 00:20
This is episode 272. So last week we talked about right to repair. It's been a big political movement and human rights movement going on last couple of weeks, we kind of stirred the Hornet's Nest felt like bringing up this topic last week. And so instead of bringing on two experts about the topic, we brought on zap and Hi, Ron.
Host 1 00:47
How do you really feel that we're going to show animals from the zoo so
Host 2 00:56
Know, but they have a different bringing them on because they have a different perspective on what right to repair means to them than being in an Open Source Hardware and Building a hardware for DEF CON and that kind of stuff. So zap, and Hi, Ron, what do you all do, so to speak, they are new listeners might not know what an XR is.
Host 1 01:24
Esther has been a few months you want to go higher. And
Host 1 01:27
So as a hobby, we make open source hardware, to have games and security challenges and just to try to teach ourselves and others about embedded systems. And we do it in the form of an electronic conference badge. And what comes with that is, you know, some Capture the Flag events, some nifty interactive features that usually you got to be in person for leveraging different radios, and teaching people how we do it and open sourcing it, throwing it up on GitHub, sharing it, enabling people to fix the badges themselves when they break.
Host 1 02:10
For those on Twitch. If I had my badges unpacked, I'd be showing you an example of one. But I don't have one, right.
Host 1 02:18
Right here. Zap and I literally just both moved, like my walls are bare. We haven't opened up right now.
Host 1 02:26
Yeah, so they're usually some form of art. Blinded with some open source. Open Source maybe is a little bit of a stretch. But we certainly released the schematics and in some of the Gerber's and whatnot. And we've seen people make their own before. So that's, that's kind of fun. Usually, you know, people copy parts of the design, we saw one, I think it was our second badge. Almost five years ago, somebody basically re reformed it in the shape of a monkey. And they actually took it on a cruise, they took, like, 80 of them on a cruise. And there's a picture of Wil Wheaton walking around with their badge and our badge around his neck. So it's pretty
Host 1 03:10
Good times. So yeah, answering your question, you know, what badges what's, what's open source things we do. So when you think about that, like we're, we'll be at a conference with, you know, 1000s of people around hundreds of people wearing the badge. And we want to teach people how to repair it. You know, big surprise when you have people, those types of electronic devices, embedded systems on a lanyard banging around they hit each other they break sometimes sometimes people spill something on them. Any old people are eager to learn sometimes it's Hey, this busted off. I've never soldered before, can you? You know, find a shady corner and let's like rig up a soldering iron and fix it.
Host 2 03:56
I unplugged the the slot machine plug your soldering iron in? Yeah, that's
Host 1 04:00
A good spot. But you know, going through the hole, like, hey, teach me how to repair this or you know, and we'll show them hey, look on GitHub. There's like our common top 10 failures on this thing and here's how you would tear it down and replace it or something. So I think from like, a maker or hacker perspective, like that community tends to be more open and information sharing because that community is really much driven by the whole mantra of learning and getting more knowledge out there. Though at the same time, I mean, we all wear different hats. There's the I work at a company hat, I'm a consumer hat. I'm a maker hat. As a consumer I'm, I'm more in blitzes boat where I vote with my dollar. I buy Android stuff because of that. Like I did a little write up on a Hackaday post on I wasn't happy with my wear OS watch. And granted, I messed around more in the firm. were, you know, application layer because I can go in ADB and go in there and start configuring it, because it's Linux. And I taught people how to do that. But I chose to spend my money with that manufacturer with that company, because I can. But that doesn't mean I can really start tearing apart that watch and, and soldering or desoldering stuff, or really understanding what's going on in that because it's still a little proprietary. But I don't think any of the Android manufacturers are going out of their way to stop me from repairing it or, or telling I fix it. No, you can't touch this.
Host 1 05:36
Do you think that is a problem? If somebody is trying to stop you from repairing or not trying to deal with that hole?
Host 1 05:44
Do I own the device? Am I still like, what is it licensing it paying it off kind of thing. But at the end of the day, if if I own something? Yeah, it sucks if they don't put out manuals or information on how to repair it. But yeah, if someone's going out there saying, hey, I'll sue you for trying to repair this or, or I'm gonna go out of my way to make your life hard and punish you. Because, you know, you're with the tag off on your little mattress, digital mattress. I'm looking at the big white thing behind zap, it's it's the elephant, it's literally the elephant in the room. Yeah,
Host 1 06:25
Yeah, the, the certain manufacturer behind me is very famous for not liking, or not letting people repair the firmware in their tail light, or, or the wheel well, or whatever
Host 1 06:38
It is, Elon is listening right now.
Host 1 06:42
But you know, at the same time, like, you know, I bought the car paying for all the support behind it. But for me, personally, I have no intention of messing with a car. That's not my hobby, right? I want it to work. And I want it to have new features. But I don't have the time the day with the family and my day job to go and mess with it. But I think if somebody wanted to, you know, they should be able to say, hey, void, the warranty? You know, I don't want you to support but I want to go mess with and do everything, anything I want with my car. If they don't let me do that, then is it really my car? And am I just leasing it at that point, in which case, I shouldn't be the one taking the depreciation, they can't have it both ways. Right? So
Host 1 07:26
Now to be be fair, if you're like, in an organization where you you manage a bunch of products by not just managing your manufacturing stuff, you have a whole product line. And you have a staff of people that provide support to fix these things. I get the whole point of view of, you know, I can train my staff to provide technical support or whatnot for the things we make. But if you think about how many millions of customers someone may have, and then all these, I shouldn't say onesie twosie is but the number of influx comes in like I need help. I removed this DVD player from my playstation and put my own thing in there. Now it doesn't work you need to help me. I know that's an extreme example. But I can imagine as a company, you're like, we got to draw the line somewhere. If you're making unauthorized changes, why should I be on the hook to help you with that?
Host 3 08:27
But, you know, we made we made a point fairly similar to that last week. And in the same vein, with with Tesla and Apple, they have a particular brand. And they have what is it, they basically have a standard that they try to keep in everyone's mind of this is a particular luxury item that you buy. And yes, you're subscribing to all of the extra baggage that comes along with that. But when you buy one of those things, you know, it operates in a very particular way. And a lot of people purchase it because it operates that way. But that comes along with some pretty stiff rules and regulations on how it gets repaired effectively.
Host 1 09:14
Exactly. Yeah, I used to make scenes before we went live. But I used to build my own kernel modules. I used, you know, used to compile a kernel from scratch, and it was great and I got a little bit of performance out of it. But you know, now, at some point you just that's not where I want to spend my time so I'll just accept the defaults. What I do spend all my time is making my own hardware or writing my own C code for my own devices. And yeah, I know Parker does a lot of stuff on his jeeps and and all that if he wants. The joke
Host 2 09:53
Is my Jeeps are our 70 mile an hour driving down the freeway well beads.
Host 1 09:57
Yeah, there's more fresh will be Isn't there is original material? Yep.
Host 2 10:04
So we kind of open up this topic of right to repair so. So I kind of went over over the weekend down kind of like the lists of what, like I fix it. We call it the manifesto. And also went through a couple of the there's a couple different links from last week of like, what, what they mean by right to repair and all that kind of stuff. And I kind of just jotted down some notes of stuff that I see a lot and other products of stuff that won't really work that is currently done that if you were trying to implement these kinds of things like so the first one is like ease of opening of a device to repair. Like snap together. enclosures are like the bane of everyone's existence. It's probably listen to his podcast.
Host 1 10:56
Everyone's had that flathead screwdriver marks that just deform plastic around where you think a tab is. Yeah, well,
Host 2 11:05
You think a tab is? This sounds awesome. Because how awesome would it be if everything was just screwed together? And you can easily just take stuff apart to fix it?
Host 1 11:15
That would be great. But then we don't get all these wonderful, like waterproof phones, right?
Host 2 11:21
That's actually one thing is waterproof phones. But you can't have waterproof things that are screwed together. But
Host 1 11:29
But then the cost of everything goes up because you need threaded inserts and need gaskets. And yeah, so just everything gets more pricey.
Host 1 11:35
And there's your grandma want all that.
Host 2 11:39
That's true. But that's the reason why phones are hard to open. Now. It's because everything it needs, everything needs to be thin, because it's a phone because everyone wants thin phones. But the only way to make it that thin and also waterproof is to just glue it all together. I'm actually surprised I'm not potted yet.
Host 1 11:57
Just just urethane just flat.
Host 2 12:00
I'm super surprised that hasn't been done yet. That's
Host 1 12:04
Anti right to repair. Yeah.
Host 2 12:10
And then there's also the thing of like, no six security screws, but I'm actually I have not planned this. This is a box of security bits. Like every single security bit that you need is in this box. It's like $10. Having security screws does not prevent people from opening up your device. Maybe back in like the 90s that did or prior where you couldn't just go on Amazon and order $10 where the bits. But I don't view security screws as a way of keeping people out of your device. I view it as keeping people who don't have any idea of what to do out of your device. Well, then they're very strategic at that point. Yeah, I mean that they they made a conscious decision to make sure they had the right security bit before they open it up and like expose themselves to high voltage or something like that.
Host 1 13:02
Well, and I know Apple uses security bits on their phones, but they are screws, I should say not bits. But they use them very strategically. There's only like one or two and it's it's the ones to get in basically, everything else after that is a normal fastener mainly, I mean, probably because of cost. But it's clear that they use them in those locations to make sure that you don't get in. Yep.
Host 2 13:29
But again, you can go on Amazon right now and buy the apple screwdriver for like $2.
Host 1 13:34
But let's be honest, like, we're, these four people are the kinds of people that might open a phone, right? You don't
Host 2 13:41
Know what I'm saying is you're not preventing the people who can get in there. You're only preventing just Joe Schmo that's like oh, there's a Phillips head screwdriver on here. I'm just gonna open it up.
Host 1 13:51
Derek, it's like layered defense, like you're looking at okay, what's the first couple of passes of people that are just going to see this kind of bent and go? Nah, not worth it. Those are there's probably a high correlation between I don't know what anything is. That isn't a Phillips head bit too. Hey, help me I broke this thing while taking it apart. Correct. And just really quick by taking them apart but I'm not going to call the tech support complaining about it.
Host 2 14:25
But the next thing is is what I see a lot is ultrasonic welding of enclosures and potting like there's some enclosure or some products that are only that's the only way you can make them you can't have a gasket or because the device is too small. And you have to ultrasonic weld it and put it in it's like well, that unit is no repair of that thing at all. Because moment. You can't reseal it or anything like that. It's a lot like that. Shark. Shark cleaner, pool cleaner that I fixed And it screwed together. It screwed together and everything but the moment you pull it apart, there's nowhere to put it all back together because the gasket was just all all messed up and it basically only goes together once, but a lot of glue fixes that. So I made it even more unrepairable.
Host 1 15:18
It's been a couple of years, right? Yeah, it still works. Still works nice. Yep. doesn't magically won't fix. Yeah.
Host 2 15:29
So, so fancy in chat is asking, what's your favorite security screw design?
Host 1 15:35
The ones on bathroom stalls where they only go one direction and not the other.
Host 2 15:40
Oh, I hate those. I've never understood why they do that too. It's like, it's someone really going to sit there taking a poop. And like the screw those.
Host 1 15:51
The fact that they exist means yes.
Host 2 15:54
Somebody means yes. It's something that happened. Yeah,
Host 1 15:56
I guess so. Yes. So we had those are the house we're selling when we bought it had bars in the window and that was a tight had these massive bolts that you could only went one way. And we'd have weak I couldn't take them off. I'd have a special need to hire somebody to do it.
Host 1 16:13
The one that I love hated the most. So I just got a house came with a ring doorbell. finally time to charge it. I threw the ring, the ring security screwdriver, I throw it away because I'm like, I have torques screwdrivers and torques bits. Little die realize ring actually has a little bump on their security screws. So security torques. Yeah, you need a security torque with a little dividend. Yeah, and I'm sitting there going You son of a go on Amazon. And okay, now I got a full set. But or you get your Dremel out, and you just kind of dig into like like this. Well, it's it's inside of it. Oh, I see what you said. Yeah. So like I was sitting there like trying to dig my existing torque wrench on there. And I'm like,
Host 2 17:05
Yeah, so there's a trick, there's a file on like, there's a little trick to those, by the way, because the pegs are usually a lot smaller. You can just take a small screwdriver and then tap that, that peg out of the torques.
Host 1 17:20
Oh, just just knock the bumper off.
Host 2 17:22
Yeah, you can knock the bump out of it.
Host 1 17:24
Risk reward. I'm like, I'm sitting here with a hammer ago. And I could break this or I can go on Amazon Prime and have an entire set for $5. Tomorrow. That's what I do.
Host 2 17:37
I actually liked the security torques a lot. It doesn't really impede. Like the one way bathroom ones are just a pain in the butt. So or our throwback try wings from the tendo.
Host 1 17:54
Was that is that the triangle ones? Yeah, the tri
Host 2 17:57
Tri wing Phillips.
Host 1 18:01
The triangles ones. You can still get a flathead in there. If it's small enough, and you can still Yeah, but no. I'm curious. Oh, try when you say okay, this is the triple Yeah.
Host 1 18:13
Yeah, they're like the weird little. Yeah, yeah. It's a Triforce felt like there's a lot that
Host 2 18:19
I took apart Mini and Mini Gameboys. Back in the day. The next thing is access to manuals. So we went through, like ease of opening repair for repairs, access to manuals, yes. So what I was really getting what this one is like, I mean, there's a lot of small and medium volume products that I work on, that don't have manuals, like at all, even manuals to build the products, let alone repair them. So it's like, what do you do if, let's say, right, the repair when an Act went into place? And then basically, companies were forced to provide manuals. Well, what if you're one dude in a garage, and you can barely even put together documentation to put your device together to get built? I mean, how are you going to be? There's no manual? What do you do in that case?
Host 1 19:13
You give away free product to people willing to write your manual.
Host 2 19:21
Attorney advice over please call 043 bla bla bla bla bla, for the manual and it's just you.
Host 1 19:29
You said one that I fix it with a six pack of beer say please help. Yeah.
Host 1 19:34
And they just come up with a screwdriver kit for it.
Host 1 19:39
Well, how long you had to maintain those manuals to write if you discontinue the product? Do you have to keep those for five years for 10 years? You probably have a responsibility to put it to publish it somewhere in the public domain. But I don't think most garage based companies are that responsible or you know if you're going out of business? Are you really gonna spend resources doing that? I don't know.
Host 1 20:04
That's the answer. You're not doing. And okay, so How accurate do they need to be as well? So in other words, like, let's say you make a small revision to your part, and it's now read as opposed to blue. Well, it doesn't look like your manual anymore. And if that confuses somebody, and now they they have problem fixing your thing, is it your fault? Because it's a different color? I know that's a little bit ridiculous. I'm getting extreme there. But like, to what level of change the or to what degree of accuracy, does your manual have to be constant?
Host 2 20:35
I'm more worried about just like, I mean, that's, that's a concern, but I'm just more worried about like small and medium volume companies that just don't have the resources to do this kind documentation because they just don't do it. Their repair their repair shop is like that dude, weird dude in like the back, you know, lab
Host 1 20:56
Or just set up a wiki or a forum and let your customers do it for you.
Host 2 21:01
A lot. A lot of small volume companies do that? Yeah. Yeah, it's one of those one I think about we're like, the, the right to repair for automotive worked out, okay. Because all the automotive companies are ginormous, and they already build repair manuals that they provide their their own service department, so they just have to go, okay, third party mechanics. Here's the same documentation. Fine. But now you're talking about, you know, dude, soldering amps in his basement and sell and selling them. Now he asked to provide that documentation. I know
Host 1 21:38
Who would do that?
Host 1 21:41
What solder are me,
Host 2 21:43
Building pinball boards? It's like now do I have to provide like my brain on how to fix that? Because that's the documentation is my brain?
Host 1 21:50
Basically, yeah. How far you
Host 2 21:54
Start cloning my brain in jars.
Host 1 21:56
I, you know, I keep going back to this. And maybe it's a political stance of some sort. But like, if, if you really care that much about manuals, and you research a company, and they don't provide manuals, don't buy their stuff. Go to someone who does provide manuals, don't use the government to beat someone over the head and say you must provide manuals. Use your dollars as incentive for them to write manuals if it's that important.
Host 1 22:24
I think for most people, unfortunately, it's not right. They, they'll just pay this this little IoT device broke, okay, I'll throw it away, which they shouldn't be doing. I'll throw it away. And I'll just buy a new one on Amazon because it's, you know, five bucks.
Host 2 22:38
Well, it's that but people don't think about needing the manual until they need the manual to talk about repair manuals.
Host 1 22:48
So tell me what you think about this. I recently it was looking for a lot of appliance manuals moved there, like, you know, a furnace washer, dryer fridge, stove hood. And you know, going online, I'm like, What's this? What's that. And more often than not, what I'm running across is, I don't know, maybe it's free manuals.ru/you know, not malware.com. But in general, after safely sandboxing and getting access to these somewhat malicious PDFs, you can tell that they aren't like the OEM manuals, they're ones that they provided to like mom and pop shops that were trusted repair agents. So it's like there's this, oh, you can get manuals, but you have to be a licensed service pay member to get them? You know, should those be open source and free? are? Are they are under right to repair? Are they meeting the obligation by saying, oh, we'll put them out there. If you pay for our like serviceable third party kind of annual fee to do that. You get your Adobe Creative Suite of PDFs
Host 2 24:06
Host 1 24:08
Yeah, I mean, it just seems weird. Like, no, the average person can't have this manual. Unless you pay the service fee to Maytag or Frigidaire or something.
Host 2 24:18
There was a the go off this there was a back in college, when I was in college, there was a service that you could sign up for and pay them because they paid all the other companies for those manuals. And so you would pay a smaller percentage just to have access to them to access it or like library. So I did that for college because I fixed appliances a lot.
Host 1 24:45
Why did I mean why? Charge for them? Right? Is that just to keep the barrier of entry high?
Host 2 24:51
I think it's an event the Yeah, it's the prevent, you know, normal DIY or from like being able to repair them. That's totally Get it is
Host 1 25:00
Because it's like 12. I think this company behind me, I think they charge like 1200 or something for their manuals, or for access to the portal to the manuals. And for me, that's too much, but maybe for like, a random shop somewhere if they're repairing a few a week. Okay, that makes a little more sense. But 100 people like you and me,
Host 1 25:22
Okay? Well, in your example, if that shop does spend the 1200 to buy it, then they can put on their sign outside, we fix this particular one, and they get more business.
Host 1 25:36
There is a question in the Twitch chat. I don't want to get to that. But
Host 2 25:39
Yeah, that's so DEF CON 12345 says a tiered system for the right repair. different sized company provides different levels of support. So I think this rolls back to just like, if it for me, at least two, it's like if you're, if it's not important to you then just don't buy from that company if they don't provide it. I know that's kind of hard for some people to swallow, especially if they like I liked the iPhone, but I also want to fix it. It's like, I won't, I will. For me, I like to work on my cars, I'm not going to buy a Tesla, because I know Tesla does not like that. So I'm not gonna buy a Tesla. As much as I don't like Tesla's I'm not gonna buy a Tesla. But that cyber truck. I actually got my $100 back for that. So did you really I thought you were like three or four them. But I mean,
Host 1 26:31
As a compromise, all total approach makes sense. Like, yeah, that would protect the small like, Hey, I'm working out of my garage. I can't afford to do this. But if I'm a fortune 500 company that's already doing this stuff, we have a higher expectation of you. Or rather, don't put as much effort into preventing people from doing things with stuff that they legally own. I
Host 1 26:55
Mean, does it matter who you're selling to as well? I mean, if you're making your your pinball boards for only pinball manufacturers, does it apply to you then because I imagine if they need the documentation, they should be paying you for it. You're not selling direct to consumer?
Host 3 27:11
Well, and one of the things just to make sure that we're framing this properly, a lot of the complaint or a lot of the reason why right to repair even exist isn't necessarily for the individual to repair their product. It's the ability to take your iPhone somewhere other than the Genius Bar, or you can take it to the place down the street that you want. You want to take it to a third party repair shop and then and then the third party repair shop having access to these manuals having access to the parts or whatever.
Host 2 27:41
It's the one of my friends I think his name is Chris Craft had texted me this example because he listened to last week's podcast and he said the might be a confusion issue with this right to repair. Is it right to repair verse right to be repaired? mean I mean, like Tesla, if you if you turned around right now and took your and and took a wrench to your your Tesla and fix something, I don't know if there's anything broken on it or not, but like Tesla can't do anything, the FBI is not going to kick your door down. Right. So you do have the right to repair it now. You don't have the right it doesn't have the right to be repaired. In terms of like your warranty being intact and that kind of stuff.
Host 1 28:37
Well, and you went into a voluntary contract with Tesla when you bought that car or with Apple when you buy their phone. You signed a piece of paper saying I agree to all of these terms, you know, yes, I guarantee you 99% of people didn't read any of those things whatsoever. But I mean, it's a voluntary agreement saying I'm okay with this.
Host 2 29:00
Then they route rule that you realize aren't binding. I don't know. I don't know. Can't remember I just don't care. Yeah, scroll down hit okay. The worst when you scroll down to hit okay, and it has a timer
Host 1 29:18
Zap Didn't you say that? Was there a Canadian situation where Tesla was trying to
Host 1 29:25
Yeah, we're talking about that before but before I guess we went live they some Canadian company I can't pronounce their name it's French something rather sorry. But they just call
Host 2 29:37
It poutine Corp
Host 1 29:42
I think it's like Tim Hortons or something
Host 1 29:44
Important. Tim Hortons poutine
Host 1 29:48
They found a way you know to hack the software and add 50 horsepower to the car it mess around with the front motor or something I don't know. And they started selling this mod for 800 bucks, well, it's the same thing you can get in the app, you know, I can click the app on my phone. And for 2000 bucks, my car goes a half second faster than the zero to 60. It's pretty crazy. But same thing that Tesla's selling. In August, it turns out the Tesla push knows in June in August, Tesla pushed out a software update that detected their mod, and then warn people, they're avoiding their warranty. So it's, it's pretty sketchy, because it's like, hey, if I want to do that, yeah, let me void my warranty. I maybe I don't need your support. But it's still my car.
Host 1 30:34
Yeah, you know, it's this doesn't typically fall under right to repair. But something that's been going on for 20 years, it's kind of in a similar vein, I think about like, right to modify. You know, you may not be repairing, but you're altering it in some way. If you look at video game manufacturers, like some of the most amazing hardware hacking stories, and examples come from, like bunny Wang, and working on the Xbox, or Mod chips, or like, when when people have figured out the whole, like, you pop a little mod booster in the back of a PlayStation, you put one disc and swap it out, you get the boot code in there, and Playstation and Microsoft and Nintendo, they go after people for releasing mod kits. And if you think about that, I, I paid three or $400 for a console, I own it, I can do whatever I want to it, but they don't want, you know, mod kits and things getting out. And it's you know, it's not exactly a repairing. But outside of cars and things, there's people going after modders for that very reason
Host 2 31:44
I know it, it goes to the same kind of grounds is is your right to own the product, verse leasing, or whatever you actually own it if they say you can't do anything to it. But going back to zaps example, with Tesla, it's same thing happens in automotive, other automotive, where you can if you can, too, if you tune your car to make more power, you're doing an expense of other things. And a lot of times those other things are also things that will break or wear out faster. And thus. Well, well. That's the reason why those voids your warranty is because Oh, you're pushing an extra, let's say 100 horsepower and your transmission breaks now. Well, was it because the transmission was actually faulty? Or is it because you're pushing more power through it now? But like painting your door red won't break your transmission?
Host 1 32:44
I'm sure Tesla would find a way to make that happen.
Host 2 32:51
But craft lab on Twitch has our companies required to make design or our companies required to make designs that can be okay. Yeah, this is this is actually kind of going back to the first thing which was ease of opening of repairs, but also basically making making designs or forcing companies to design stuff a certain way. How do you feel about that? No,
Host 1 33:17
That's, I think that's entirely fair. I mean, like, from a from a whole systems engineering point of view, if you look at like automotive or aerospace, it's very common to have like, design for maintainability. And, and people put contract requirements in saying, you know, certain parts that were out have to be able to be opened, replaced, serviced within X number of hours, because you may have technicians that operated. Think about like a power plant, right? Or, or utility companies or, or trains, airplanes, 740 sevens, where they're going to be coming into an airport and leaving within 45 minutes. Like Boeing and whatnot, they have requirements put on them that certain parts are serviceable, and easily maintainable. Because we need technicians to be able to get in, remove, replace, fix the stuff, do what they need to do, because they have a business to operate, and they got to put butts in seats and take off and go fly somewhere else. So I think it's entirely reasonable for someone to put in like maintainability requirements. And yeah, that comes at a cost that drives up the cost. I would think anyone doing that is looking at the outset of my customers are going to be commonly pained to do that. And again, that's why as a consumer, you decide with your wallet, if you're going to be working on your own vehicle, mate, and you're going to be changing your own oil. Maybe you want a Ford or a Chevy or even a Toyota, but you don't want a Nissan where to even get the oil filter out You have to reach up and back by five feet, and you can't just drop the oil filter out. It's not designed to be maintainable. But a little bit of both. It depends. Are you a multibillion dollar corporation that can can influence that? Or are you just a consumer?
Host 2 35:16
Yeah, I think what there's a lot, I think all of us here agree, which is might not be a good thing for the podcast discussion.
Host 1 35:24
Host 2 35:25
But the it's we're, we're erring on the side of people should be more educated consumers, rather than just being a consumer.
Host 3 35:37
Yeah, absolutely. It will. And here's the thing, actually, hiring the the the talk about airplanes is actually really great. I had a chat with somebody. A while back, actually, at macro fed, we were talking about the airline industry, and how razor thin is everything is for airlines like it, if they have a failure. It's, it's kind of a big deal. And it's like globally a big deal. If an airplane goes down for some reason, and there's loss of life, the entire company tanks, and it's really hard to recover from that. So they put these requirements when they purchase, you know, from from a manufacturer for when they purchased the actual airplanes themselves, they put these in, because they have these requirements of that. Now, here's the thing, me as the consumer, I don't know those requirements. I have no clue what it is. When I put my butt in the seat, I'm getting there. Right. But But if if I even heard that one airline had one problem, you bet my you bet I wouldn't be flying with them, you know.
Host 1 36:41
So I can extra up on us on a max.
Host 2 36:46
I think they're so grounded right?
Host 1 36:49
Now they're flying.
Host 1 36:52
I mean, I'll admit my bias, if given the choice between a max and a McDonnell Douglas and nd 80. I'm going with the MDA. They've they've gone through the beginning of the bathtub curve. They're going solid,
Host 1 37:07
They're pretty flat line. Yeah.
Host 3 37:10
Well, and here's the thing, I've heard a few words that I think are key in here. In fact, GraphLab in the Twitch channel, in two of the the posts, there's the word required mandate, and I think I run he said the word forced. And that kind of just resonated with me. Because if you say those words, who's doing it, who's the one who's mandating who's forcing who's requiring a lot of times, that just ends up being the government forcing that, and I'm not here to just say like, oh, anti government, everything. But I guess my my point is, sort of back to what kraftform said, if we just come approach this as informed consumers, or just even slightly more informed consumers, then we can be individually the ones who are doing the mandate and the forcing
Host 1 38:01
And the requirement.
Host 1 38:04
Yeah, I mean, they'll respond to market forces a lot more than they will to the government.
Host 1 38:08
Exactly. I mean, at the end of the day, if I'm as big as Apple, or Google or whoever, if people still keep spending millions of dollars, all the stuff that I sell, I don't really care about all the noise. But if there's a mass exodus from a certain marketplace, and people stop buying your stuff, because you don't engineer it, or support it in a way that your consumers want, then you're going to start paying attention. That being said, I still agree that, you know, the, the Tesla or whoever shouldn't be going after you or preventing you from trying to repair your stuff. But if they do, yeah, that's, that's a further reason to, to not do business with them. And I'm okay with maybe the government stepping in and saying, hey, you know, you can't go after people for modding or repair and things that they buy, but I'm not gonna hold a gun to your head and make you shovel out all these repair manuals and stuff. There's a fine line on it as well, I
Host 2 39:19
Know I 100% agree. It's one of those. The if you don't, oh, is it actually what and also backwards Apple saying way earlier, is if you don't own it, then the company can take the depreciation of it as well, meaning that they get back after it's useless and give you money for it right.
Host 1 39:41
Or just assume the debt. Yeah.
Host 1 39:46
The other one you take Oh, sorry, if I'm an evil company, I don't want people to repair my stuff. I might be forced to produce the manuals but not forced to provide the tools
Host 1 40:00
Well, and that's we talked a lot about that last week is that the right to repair is kind of all encompassing here. In other words, if you're providing the manuals, you're providing the procedures, you're you're providing access to the tools and access to the parts themselves. So it's basically, you're giving everyone the the entire power to be able to repair.
Host 1 40:25
And does that extend to source code, right? Well, that time source code today is treated as secret sauce, right? There's not probably not that much special about it. But it's intellectual property. And a lot of our products today have some sort of AI ML model. And yeah, that model may be running in the device. But do they have to make the training data available to you that generate the model? And there's there's a interesting discussions, and I don't have any answers for it, of course. So before
Host 2 40:55
We jump into that, I want to bring up what fancy brings up a really good comment and chat about guidelines and regulations for products for easily recyclability, depending on the part like rare earth metals and lithium batteries, like being able to easily separate those out of the products because like, right now, if you tried to get that, like process a phone, good luck, right?
Host 2 41:24
I could see, like having good guidelines for that, I still don't think it's like a government's job to force companies to do that. Now, if you, if you like, if consumers actually cared about it, then you can market your product as Hey, our product is more recyclable. So at the end of its lifetime, it's easily it has less e waste or something like that. But that's actually kind of when you think about a bad thing to market mean, because people don't buy something and think like, oh, yeah, three years down the road, this thing's gonna be useless now. Especially when you spend like $800 on a phone,
Host 1 42:04
I don't know, that's a pretty good way to, to signal that you've put some thought into something. And that's another good way to inform your or to keep your clients informed, or customers I should say,
Host 1 42:17
I do want to address def cons question where he's asking about how does right to repair impact security of products, especially with software?
Host 2 42:26
Yeah, that's, that's the next topic is schematics, circuit diagrams and firmware where those things are kind of considered the secret sauce of your product, and where the security of your product lies.
Host 1 42:43
Yeah, so this is what I was thinking. I mean, there's a difference between intellectual property and security controls. In general, you shouldn't rely on security by obscurity, you should not rely on the fact that people don't know what's going on, therefore secure. In fact, a lot of very secure designs can be openly shared and showing like, Hey, here's kind of a layered zero trust model, we have, you know, different types of cryptography and different types of key exchange and, and in general, being able to show here's how it works. I would say in the near term that would affect devices security, because most like IOT embedded system devices, they just rely on the fact that no one knows what's going on. And no one's going to go through the trouble of tearing the thing open and hooking up a JTAG debugger and figuring out what the heck's like actually, going on with it. Actually, that's overkill. Most things just have a serial port, and you can see the boot console, right. Yeah, right away. So would it impact the security? Yeah, if people's security model is just hiding things, and hoping no one ever sees it. But I think openly sharing the internal design and repairability of it shouldn't impact the security if you're doing security, right. That shouldn't force you to reveal like aI models, if that just comes as a binary blob that gets flashed on there. But it you know, as far as your architecture and how you compose those types of system, the subsystem level components that shouldn't affect that if people are doing a good job at engineering. If they're trying to squander their security engineering or other things, then shame on them, they'll get owned.
Host 2 44:43
My big thing on this is also that's because that's the firmware side, kind of but like in some schematics, they're easily reverse engineered. spend an afternoon with a with a multimeter and a camera, and you can reverse engineer a schematic out of a piece of software hardware. Because schematics are not the secret sauce, it's the it's everything else about the product that that is the layout, the layout is way more important than schematic is. Agree.
Host 1 45:26
More, let's tilt this just a little bit and we'll get rid of the RF feedback. And now the FCC certifies. Exactly.
Host 3 45:33
Actually, Parker had a great point about that last week. If you do a repair on something, have you now violated FCC rules? And did you install something that is now polluting the environment with a bunch of em?
Host 1 45:48
Yeah, I mean, yeah, maybe someone's like, Oh, here's a here's the thing on how to mod your stuff and get way better reception and now they don't realize like, you know, people's garage door openers stopped working or the microwave makes
Host 2 46:02
Wasn't that one of those open source firmware is that were the wrong one on routers got in trouble for that.
Host 1 46:11
Did open WRT get in trouble for
Host 2 46:13
That? I might be that one. But well, I think one of them got in trouble by basically like the hardware was able to like be cranked way up on the on the broadcast range and the the normal firmware, you know, of course, locked it down. So you would be an FCC regulation. But the open open source firmware was like, oh, yeah, you can just crank that thing all the way up.
Host 1 46:37
Oh, trimmer on the board that says Do not turn.
Host 1 46:41
I just said it could Google it was open WRT you could crank the power up beyond FCC limits.
Host 2 46:48
Yeah. So it's like who's at fault for that? At that point.
Host 1 46:52
So you know, that brings like you
Host 2 46:55
Design hardware that could exceed it. But when you offer the product, you did limit it.
Host 1 47:02
So to be fair, I mean, right to repair is a huge umbrella. Like we're talking about John Deere tractors. And because we work in electronics, we're all thinking about like hardcore electronics. But that brings up an interesting point. People don't often consider the FCC and what people do with electronics and RF and what kind of interference and feedback comes and so you start crossing that line of Oh, you want right to repair right to mod? You may be doing something out of ignorance, but as illegal now. And so therefore, do you need certified third party or first party repair people to avoid like, oh, yeah, I've made my phone better. And now the stoplights near my intersection stop working? Or?
Host 3 47:52
Well, okay, and even further than that, okay. So i mod my Xbox in my house, and it emits more crap into the environment. Really, honestly, who cares? I mean, I'm saying that I'm saying that in terms of like, it's one guy doing one thing, it's not a big deal. But let's say right to repair forces, Microsoft to allow third party people to do that exact same repair. And now we got third party people do an incorrect repairs. Who's at fault? At that point? Does Microsoft get the fine from the FCC? Or does the third party guy for actually doing the the fix so
Host 2 48:28
Usually, when you're a third party, like a third party repair, you have access to the first party stuff and so your repairs should be legit? Should be
Host 3 48:37
What if but what if, what if they're not what if the repair I'm just saying is like, I mean, now they have the information because they have the manual and they can decipher what the repair is and they just figure it out on their own, but it's incorrect, but it works.
Host 1 48:50
Like they don't they put the wrong capacitor on there or they they they put the wrong filter on there. And you know, you don't belong your filter on there and the shape is completely wrong and are held
Host 1 49:02
When they put it back together. They don't put the shields back on. You know,
Host 1 49:06
Those shields just get in the way. Right, right.
Host 2 49:09
Up so shield. You'd be surprised at how many Atari 2600s I've
Host 1 49:13
Opened up in in the day that do not have the RF shields in there anymore. Oh, yeah. You put them back together. There's like four or five screws still on your desk.
Host 1 49:22
Oh, they were just really making the Atari heavy. I'm like you want this You want my smartwatch to be faster, just get rid of all those little shields, it'll be a lot better on your wrist.
Host 2 49:35
So what my big thing on this is getting with the schematics and firmware that kinds of scope. The right to repair electronics is that stuff would be accessible because you need that stuff that technically fix it. You need the firmware. So if you have to replace a microcontroller, you need the firmware so you can flash it. So what mechanics also would the right to repair for electronics put in place to prevent just straight up cloning of your product then because that's what this enables. Also, there's gonna be more there's more people that clone Arduinos than repair Arduinos.
Host 1 50:15
Oh, yeah. Ali Baba within a week.
Host 2 50:19
Yeah. So no, that's an extreme example of like, you can buy like the official Arduino for like $30. But you can buy one on like Ali Baba for $3. So what's what mechanics are right three pair electronics will be put into place to prevent that from happening close.
Host 1 50:36
Oh, so I don't know if you recall our badge. Three years ago, we had that sort of FPGA thing in it. I don't know what you Oh, yeah, it was I called. It was this little tiny, tiny QFN. Chip. And green greenpac
Host 1 50:54
Greenhead. Yeah, greenPath.
Host 1 50:55
They got bought out by someone. I can't remember who it was now. But yeah, green.
Host 2 50:59
It's like a little FPGA that you can kind of do programmable analog stuff in,
Host 1 51:04
Add, like 256 bits, whatever. We use that as our button D bouncer. And then some other some other kind of easter eggs. But one of the reasons we put it on there was to make it harder to clone the badge. Not that we didn't want people to do it. One of them had to figure out how to do it because you can buy a straight up green pack on the off Digi key. But it was it didn't have any of our instructions in it. Their secret sauce, you didn't have our secret sauce, you weren't flashing firmware to it, you had to burn in the different gates and whatnot to make it work. The factory actually did it for us. They did a real 1000 they produced a part number. But you can't just go the factory and say I want the end on XOR greenpac. Because that was exclusive to us. So they had to figure out a way to make that work.
Host 2 51:55
So that's actually no, no, no, actually, that issue comes up with Apple we talked about this last week is they have a charging IC, that it's a normal charging IC. But apples got their secret sauce in there. And so that company can only sell it to Apple. Well, part of that right to repair. I can't remember his name, the person who's pushing it right now. Oh, he's the apple Gosman. Yeah, Louis, is that's actually one of his examples is not being able to buy that components. And he wants to put legislation in to be able to allow the buy that doesn't.
Host 1 52:32
The Raspberry Pi has access to the raspberry Foundation has access to a Broadcom chip, right? Isn't that there aren't controller, same thing. It's when you can't just buy on the on the open
Host 1 52:43
Market. It's a blob, no one had, you know, tons of open source relies on the Raspberry Pi. But no one knows what's on that chip.
Host 2 52:52
It's mining that Bitcoin for you.
Host 1 52:56
And not using USB C and that's why it's not as powerful as it should be.
Host 1 53:01
But yeah, that's one way I guess you could control it is with specialized hardware, and then control supply chain on.
Host 3 53:11
But doesn't that just sort of get you back into the spot where everyone's upset with you that they can't get their their thing? So like in other words, if you're the corporation who produces the thing, you just can't win, there's just no way to win. So So is your
Host 1 53:25
Is your value in the specific thing? Or is it the thing that comes around it? Right? Is it? Is it your your support? The ecosystem, the apps, if it runs apps, the integrations with with Alexa, right, those sorts of things? Can somebody sell a clone on on Alibaba? And no one cares, because it doesn't have your label on it that
Host 2 53:54
Hard to answer? Yeah. extremely hard to answer. Yeah. So I think that's one thing a good question to ask someone. That might be more. I mean, this is this group is kind of like in agreement feels like on this topic. But like someone who's more like actually, a big question to ask Lewis is once you get them on what mechanics would be in place to prevent the strain of cloning if you are forcing companies to provide this data then this information right. So let's just move on down the list because we have 49 plus like six minutes of the previous recording
Host 1 54:31
All right, go along.
Host 2 54:33
Yeah, so we talked about we talked about Tesla and the the motor output
Host 2 54:42
Oh, yeah. How about how about this also thing with licenses is make licenses more clear about which elements of the machine you're not included that are not included in quotes with the sale. Do not allow companies to create contract language languages that modifier or limit support options in the future, that kind of stuff? I think this is kind of like going back to voting with your wallet. But you actually have to read that 100 page like document that you're signing with an OK button.
Host 1 55:13
Yeah. Would the average consumer do that? I mean, I know in my day job, we certainly care about the intellectual property of everything we're buying from our Upstream suppliers. We, every you know that that's written in contract language, we pay a pretty penny on that, because, you know, we need to support it when they're gone. And sometimes that means switching manufacturers or you know, paying somebody else to produce the part.
Host 2 55:47
Oh, and we brought this up earlier because of the question. But the whole idea of, you know, we had DFM design for design for manufacturability, we have does DRC, design rule checks, that all that kind of stuff, but the dr. D, F, are designed for recycle. Which is kind of an interesting topic that no one really talks about yet. But there's probably something that's going to become more and more important as we run more and more out of resources. And more and more stuff becomes IoT unified.
Host 1 56:26
Ai, IoT things I feel are the biggest violators of the design for recycling. No, I
Host 1 56:35
Mean, I think you guys were even referencing in the last podcast, how many people are actually doing component level repair anymore? Most of the time, you throw it away, and you get a new board? Because the cost of sitting there and desoldering everything it is astronomical, in terms of personnel or is versus you know, what these components actually cost? So it's like design for recycle sounds nice. But what's the footprint of sitting there with a hot air gun and removing things or tearing stuff down? Or I guess it makes sense for the larger components? Like if you're working on a tractor, and you know, you want to get axles and carburetor like, I doubt John Deere is going to scrap an entire tractor, right? They're gonna cannibalize good portions of it.
Host 2 57:28
I think a good thing to think about here is that's because of our current our current way of how we work with things when you have a busted IoT device. I mean, you're not supposed to, but you most people just chuck it in the trash, right? So what if you couldn't do that you actually had to properly recycle or send that somewhere. So it actually gets disposed of correctly. And then there's a, there's a price tag on that now,
Host 1 58:00
You know, what I think would happen. This is me poking at the two E's on our quad screen, you're going to see less ICs, you're going to see more system on chips and more FPGAs. And you're going to see more of that hardware level design transfer to firmware, where people are going to just minimize the hardware components, you're just going to have a couple of powerful SOC system and packages or FPGAs and passives to do with the passives need to do and all the secret sauce is going to be in the firmware, because then you're reducing the component count on the board. I mean, that from a business perspective, it's going to force the minimization of the bomb to do that.
Host 1 58:44
What, what's funny is so foxtail that actually, that solution is very akin to what Parker said earlier about, like a phone with urethane in it. Because now you're taking all of those parts that were hardware, you're just putting them in a encapsulated package. So you're making a PCB that goes on a PCB is what you're basically suggesting, but
Host 1 59:07
A smart chip, I mean, isn't less likely to fail in that design.
Host 1 59:14
I think maybe it would depend on things.
Host 1 59:19
I mean, it seems like some I don't know I, I haven't dug into that as much but if you're gonna if you keep collapsing it down, it seems like reliability would improve because it's it's not exposed quite as much.
Host 2 59:31
Eventually they're going to put a battery inside an IC and then the screen inside the IC. And then you've got just the entire phone on the IC
Host 1 59:39
Phone is just a silicone die.
Host 1 59:40
Yeah, let's design an 18 650 with an IC inside of it.
Host 2 59:47
And a screen on it.
Host 1 59:50
That's actually what the 18 What it will do, it will go
Host 1 59:56
Designed for fire
Host 1 1:00:01
I mean, kind of a side note, but that was one of my frustrations with moving was all these badges and electronics I had. I had these LiPo batteries, I had to go find a good way to dispose of. And I didn't want to go put those in storage or is crazy how much stuff you accumulate over time.
Host 2 1:00:20
It's when you actually want to, like properly get rid of something. It's actually kind of difficult to do that. So I had a whole bunch of of latex paint that needed to get rid of like, like quarter gallons that collected over the years I need to get rid of. So Houston, Texas to get I called them up and like, is there a place I can like hazmat area, I can bring these in, like, no, just like paint something and then throw that thing away when it dries. Like you're creating more waste by like painting cardboard, and like wooden stuff to throw that away. They basically want you to dry it out and just throw it away.
Host 1 1:00:58
Yeah, yeah, if it's water based, at least here in California, it's water based, I believe you can let it dry out. And then you can check it if it's oil based, you still have to put certain batteries motherboards, you know, whatever.
Host 1 1:01:14
Have you guys ever tried to get rid of a refrigerator?
Host 1 1:01:19
It's a free sign. Yeah,
Host 2 1:01:21
You put it on the corner, put $10 sign on it. And it's gone in the morning, honestly, that's what I had
Host 3 1:01:25
To do. Before I moved up here. I was trying to get rid of refrigerator and I was like, I don't want to spend $100 to go deliver this somewhere for somebody. And it didn't work and it was a piece of crap. And just how do you get rid of it? You put it on Craigslist for free.
Host 1 1:01:41
I recently learned
Host 2 1:01:45
On isn't that what we did with is not what do with China the recycle stuff. We just put it on the big cargo ship with a free sign and just ship it over there.
Host 1 1:01:56
They they don't do that as much anymore. I learned from our we're oddly through my wife who went to like the Recycle Center on like a tour. But they send a lot out to I think Vietnam, or the Philippines and they clean it up. And then they send it to China because China was just sending the containers back to us full of crap. Because it wasn't clean enough for them. But yeah, they were Yeah, the containers come here full of stuff and they go back there fall over have material to recycle. And who knows where it ends up at that point.
Host 1 1:02:29
I was just gonna say like, recently, I've been relying on the trash company. And I took the time to read whatever the equivalent of the EULA is with our waste disposal people. And twice or four times a year, they will pick up four appliances within the dimensions of seven by seven. Wait doesn't matter. So you can tell them come pick up a couch and a refrigerator and we'll take it away. I will send them to your house to pick up your bridge. I'm on Colorado drive.
Host 2 1:03:05
Yeah, there are neighborhoods called bulk collection. It's four times a year.
Host 1 1:03:12
Yeah, but if you're just about if you're moving in a week, that doesn't that doesn't help you very much doesn't work.
Host 1 1:03:18
We sold a lot of things on Facebook. I mean, I know we're getting way off topic, but we just went on Facebook and just dining room table chairs kegerator. The works.
Host 2 1:03:30
So speaking of, of waste, let's talk about NF T's
Host 1 1:03:39
Oh, what a pivot.
Host 2 1:03:42
So I don't know what how we came up with I think I think it was I was asking zap and Hi Ron to be on the podcast to talk about right to repair. And then I think
Host 1 1:03:51
I was it was Saturday night and I was drinking on my current and fts. Those are stupid. Yeah. So
Host 2 1:03:58
And I put NF t's on there. And then I mentioned in our Slack channel and someone's like, Oh, that'd be interesting. Talk about so now we're stuck with that.
Host 1 1:04:08
Okay. So I'll own up to that. Prop 65 warnings since I'm from California, my opinions are my own, not my employers and
Host 2 1:04:19
Your opinions can may or may not cause cancer
Host 1 1:04:21
And reproductive harm. Only in the state of California.
Host 1 1:04:24
They're known to the state of cancer to cause California.
Host 1 1:04:28
Good pretty much. So for those who may have seen the three letter thing, non fungible tokens and FE NF T's. So many people at this point have probably heard of crypto currencies, digital currencies, and what's good and bad. I will talk about what's bad about those. What What's the limitations of those is when people sell like a doge coin, I'm only going to talk About Dogecoin because it's the best right to the moon. You can sell parts of it, and you don't really uniquely own a doge coin, like, I can own point 0001 of the Dogecoin. And it's not really traceable. So what a non fungible token does in theory with their with their, it's based on the Ethereum blockchain is that you own an entirety of an item. It has all the same benefits of it's a distributed ledger. So it tracks and, and can prove with non repudiation who owned it and how it exchanged hands. And it adds something special where if you want every time it's sold, the original seller of the digital item gets a royalty so off the bat, I'm like, this is a way to sell property, mostly digital property, but they do lose some real world property. And, and have like this actual infrastructure in place to track you know that it's authentic, who owns it, and whatnot. But in practice, what's happening is it's turning more into like a collectibles thing. Like, imagine if I want the Mona Lisa, right. There's only one Mona Lisa, but there's 1000 copies out there, right. But some crazy art collector, if it wasn't a museum may want to own it. So people are out there selling the original meme. Like someone sold Nyan Cat. Someone sold an NFT. For like Jack Dorsey on Twitter sold his first tweet. William Shatner sold a picture of like a dental X ray. So I actually heard
Host 1 1:06:57
Someone sold, like a few minutes of farting for $400.
Host 1 1:07:02
And yeah, and I look at this, and I'm like, I get it. The potential is there. But the way we're doing proof of concepts, I'm sorry. It's just frickin stupid.
Host 2 1:07:11
It's like Beanie Babies in the 98. Yeah.
Host 1 1:07:15
And I tried to think about engineering and like, Okay, how could we use this? I'm like, you could actually distribute your software licenses this way, and prove who owns what, like, how dumb is it that when someone says, Hey, I made a purchase? And look, I got an email from some company. Look, here's a copy of my email that I have a license versus what if there was a distributed ledger with non repudiation that proves you own something?
Host 1 1:07:40
Well, then you could resell it to the next person. Yeah, this version was copy of Adobe anymore.
Host 1 1:07:47
Right? Like, you could do that. But as it stands, like, you could go on the marketplace on one of these Aetherium marketplaces. And like, for collectors, you could sell a copy of this podcast. And every time it really sells, you're like, hey, we get 30 cents, I want 30 cents every time it resells in the hope that we could raise money for a six pack.
Host 1 1:08:14
Please buy our book
Host 2 1:08:15
I i do like the concept of NF T's for art in the terms of their of it of it being an original, because this is this is bringing back to the Mona Lisa prob issue is there's only one Mona Lisa. And so that's the original. And so originals for artwork, if it's good art and good arts objective, but usually goes for more money than copies or like prints. The problem is there's a lot of artists that only work in the digital realm now. And so how do you sell an original digital because it takes just as much effort and just as much work and has the same value when someone looks at digital art and goes Oh, that makes me feel feelings? And so there's how do you capture that and make it so it's not like oh, I just right click and say saved JPEG on my computer. Now I got your art,
Host 1 1:09:11
I think it's it's the same motivation that causes people to buy original prints of artwork compared to replications. Like there are people with disposable income that blow stupid amounts of money on original art versus a reprint of art. When they do that, they don't care about the artwork necessarily, because if all you cared about is having that picture up. I mean, hell, you would just print it off in your inkjet and put it go to Kinkos and get it printed, but they use it as a symbol of, hey, I'm reppin how much money or power or whatever I have to spend 10 million on a painting. And in a way that's what this allows people to do with digital art. I want to be a collector and I want to own something, even if it's a digital something. And in reality, that's kind of how it's being used right now.
Host 2 1:10:11
I would say it's going way, the other way of like, Beanie Babies, like stuff like that Pokemon cards
Host 1 1:10:20
Exactly. And that's why I was like, Man, from an engineering perspective, there's probably cool and really useful applications for doing this. Like I just threw out like, weird zap went offline. Like software licenses would be a good example for training digital things. However you wrap
Host 2 1:10:39
This around, and access to manuals for your right to repair, or through NF T's.
Host 1 1:10:47
Hey, I bought the physical thing. And here's my digital thing. And that transaction goes with me. And if I would ever able sell it, I could go on there and say, hey, look, I sold my my dishwasher to someone or my washer and dryer and someone or my Tesla, hey, it's digital manual goes with their Oh, look, now there's proof that you own it. And Tesla doesn't need you to upload scans of receipts or anything. Like that would be a really good use for it.
Host 3 1:11:15
You know, I was thinking about it earlier. What about engineering document revision control? If you could NFT your schematic and then you know that this is exactly, you know, rev 2.0 or whatever. And then you have like, exact like, you have multiple engineers working on one thing and they all conflict with each other who has the original master? Document?
Host 1 1:11:41
No, you're right. That's it's, oh, God, I don't want to repeat it. It's non fungible, you know that this person has the original, like, truth, core thing of it. But ya know, we've been starting to see it pop up. And it's just like, man, what the hell you guys are taking good technology and applying it in really ridiculous ways. And someone in chat asked like, Hey, can I sell NF t's on stuff I don't actually own in real life. Yes, you can. And people have done that. And yeah, you just start. It's no different than like, can I sell a copy of a painting? Can I sell a copy of the Mona Lisa? I didn't own it. It's just the copy. And yeah. And then you start running into legality reasons. Yeah. So he says I'm a sell macro fab.
Host 1 1:12:39
So isn't that it's only unique to the blockchain, right?
Host 1 1:12:44
Yeah, it's isolated, you can't tramp. So like, it's based on a theory and blockchain and within that market, so you can't transfer it to Bitcoin or something.
Host 1 1:12:55
But I could create my own blockchain and sell the Mona Lisa on there. Or a copy of somebody's digital
Host 1 1:13:01
Art or another version of Nyan Cat. Right? It's
Host 1 1:13:05
Only unique within that. So the community decides basically votes with their dollars going back to earlier, which which blockchain is worth the most. And it's so neatness in that. So
Host 1 1:13:19
Then your reputation comes into play. Like if, if, hypothetically, we sold an NF NF t of this podcast and did it once as a gimmick, Don't
Host 1 1:13:30
Get any ideas out there.
Host 1 1:13:33
But then what if you sold it and then two weeks later, you go on a different blockchain market that's a Etherion based and you sell an NFT of it again. Then you develop a reputation in the market goes, screw these guys. They're trying to make money.
Host 1 1:13:48
But what if somebody else sells us podcasts on a different blockchain?
Host 2 1:13:54
I think we can probably go out to that person for copyright.
Host 1 1:13:59
The NFT doesn't mean you have the copyright. It just means that like, like, if I buy a book on Amazon, I don't have the copyright for it. But I can turn around and sell that book to someone else, right. It's the exact same concept.
Host 1 1:14:12
It's more like a collectible. You own the original book. It's kind of you know,
Host 2 1:14:18
The book Steven Craig touched.
Host 1 1:14:23
Host 2 1:14:25
That's actually what exactly what is all your it's like,
Host 1 1:14:28
Authenticity. It's those like shady sports memorabilia stores in Vegas, where half the stuff is no, a third of the stuff is legit. And the rest of it it's like, I swear this is a football thrown by OJ Simpson in this game and you're like, huh, and they turn around and sell it anyway and you don't know if it's his signature or not, but they're selling as authentic. It's, it's kind of like that shady, collectible like storefront thing. But I mean, there's big bucks floating around on that? Oh, yeah. But you're right though, like repair manuals and and proof of ownership going with the transfer of devices like, what if I own something and I have the right to repair it, but I sell it, how do you track that that cell has occurred so you can promulgate that right to repair for Yeah, that warranty? Might I think that would be a reasonable application of it.
Host 1 1:15:26
I think your your software license example actually works quite well. Because then, you know, the manufacturer the software, they would recognize that particular blockchain the digital art thing, I don't know, maybe it's just a trend, but I've also been wrong in a lot of stuff. I just feel like you could just copy rinse and repeat on so many different blockchains it might devalue it at some point. Because to me, it feels like a lot of it's just the scarcity versus them dollars flowing in.
Host 2 1:15:59
We should totally do a macro coin like DJ Oh two 7x and chat says your macro coin and then release the podcast on on an NF T on on macro.
Host 1 1:16:14
I am I'm 100% down for this macro coin idea. So send $1 per coin to add Steven Craig and I will distribute macro coins to anyone up to 5 billion I'm down for this
Host 1 1:16:38
Create an NFT of the podcast and every time it's sold we get 799 royalties so you can buy a six pack that way every time someone sells that collectible podcast to someone we at least get a six pack of beer
Host 1 1:16:54
I have been playing with the with big cloud which is like a Twitter based NFT thing. Yeah, I saw that. Yeah, it's interesting. I put her main account in there and tweeted it and a couple of people went in and bought bought some of the coins only thing is I don't know how to get the money back out if I wanted to. It seems like you can put Bitcoin in but he can't pull Bitcoin out that's like Disney Dollars
Host 1 1:17:23
Is there a way to to configure an Arduino to be a mining device such that we can make Arduino core are DuQuoin or however it works and the only way to mind this is with our
Host 1 1:17:39
Host 1 1:18:09
Yeah, that hasn't really stopped many people.
Host 1 1:18:13
That's true. You know, you're probably more likely to make money buying and selling video cards then you would try to mine Bitcoin.
Host 1 1:18:20
Unfortunately, the whole buying video cards right now is not a thing that is possible.
Host 1 1:18:28
Or SAM D 20. ones or STM? 32
Host 2 1:18:32
True. Anything right now on the market. I'm having a problem getting connectors.
Host 1 1:18:37
Actually, I didn't even check is when bong hit right now. Like could you even knock it flash?
Host 2 1:18:45
Host 1 1:18:48
Host 2 1:18:51
Let's wrap up this podcast or does anyone have anything else to add to write to repair and NF T's and crapping all over apple and Tesla.
Host 1 1:19:02
We should definitely sell this podcast as an NF T and see how it goes.
Host 2 1:19:06
I'm thinking about doing a little research and then seeing if I can make a buck and macro coin at the podcast is on. So you can you could buy an original of only one copy original of a podcast. And that's the official one.
Host 1 1:19:22
Can Can we can we get dibs on buying our original podcasts of the other podcast we were on?
Host 2 1:19:30
Yeah, I mean you got baited with everyone else.
Host 1 1:19:32
That's not dibs.
Host 1 1:19:37
Capitalist dibs. Yeah, you get dibs. Yeah.
Host 1 1:19:40
Capitalist dibs is just called opportunity. That's it.
Host 2 1:19:46
I send you I send you the link and your episodes like 100x the cost of all the other episodes. Well, we are you get devs
Host 1 1:19:55
We were on episode 69. So that was gonna be pretty popular.
Host 1 1:20:00
Host 1 1:20:04
I'm calling dibs on that
Host 2 1:20:04
One too. i That pion thank you for coming on to the podcast. Thanks, guys. There's a lot of fun. Y'all sign us out.
Host 1 1:20:17
All right. Oh, yeah. That's That's me, isn't it? That was the macro fab engineering podcast. We were guests. Zap. And Hi Ron.
Host 2 1:20:27
And we were your hosts Park Dolman and Steven Gregg. Later everyone take it easy.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai