- Right To Repair Dot Org
- The Right to Repair Electronics refers to government legislation that is intended to allow consumers the ability to repair and modify their own consumer electronic devices, where otherwise the manufacturer of such devices requires the consumer to use only their offered services.
- This already exists for Autos for the most part
- Motor Vehicle Owners’ Right to Repair Act
- Ending the “unfair monopoly” of car manufacturers maintaining control over repair information that could result in independent shops turning away car owners due to lack of information.
- This already exists for Autos for the most part
- IFIXIT Manifesto
- Major Players
- Do you really own your cell phone?
- Withholding repair information
- Requiring that all repairs happen at designated service centers
- ISL9240 charging chip from renesas
- John Deere
- Requiring repairs be done with approved contractors
- Louis Rossmann of Rossmann Repair Group
- Go Fund Me
- 1.55M subscribers
- Direct Ballot Initiative in Mass
- Major Players
- Designers at the companies?
- Who is held liable for not providing the right information?
- How “perfect” does it need to be?
- How much is enough?
- When can manufacturers say no?
- Does every single part for your product need to be available off the shelf in singles all the time?
Special thanks to whixr over at Tymkrs for the intro and outro!
About The Hosts
Parker Dillmann is MacroFab's Co-Founder, and Lead ECE with backgrounds in Embedded System Design, and Digital Signal Processing. He got his start in 2005 by hacking Nintendo consoles into portable gaming units. He also runs the blog, longhornengineer.com, where he posts his personal projects, technical guides, and appnotes about board layout design and components. Parker graduated with a BS in Electrical and Computer Engineering from the University of Texas.
Stephen Kraig began his electronics career by building musical oriented circuits in 2003. Stephen is an avid guitar player and, in his down time, manufactures audio electronics including guitar amplifiers, pedals, and pro audio gear. Stephen graduated with a BS in Electrical Engineering from Texas A&M University.
Host 2 00:10
Hello, and welcome to the Mac fab engineering podcast. We're your hosts, Parker, Dolman.
Host 1 00:15
And Steven Craig.
Host 2 00:16
This is episode 271. And it's our first episode, live streaming the podcast. If you are just listened to this, normally it's a macro, it's twitch.tv/macro Fab. The channels kind of basic. It's actually from back in the we used to have those meetups, the engineering meetups at the FAB, like, four years ago. I can't remember when we probably longer than that now, longer the longer ago than we started, but it was, I think was about four years ago when we stopped. I can't remember. It's been a long time. Yeah. But um, so I'm going to kick off this podcast with the pin guitar hardware. It's actually I have the right right there. And if you're watching live, or we I actually posted the video for this too on YouTube don't know yet. But you can see, we have video. It's real, it's alive. But what's interesting is, so I built a couple of these, I think these are I have four here, three went up to Wisconsin last week. And we have a really interesting, like bootloader issue, or something like that. We don't know for sure yet. But basically, like, it's intermittent, when you power on the board, sometimes you just won't do anything. You have to press the reset button, and then it will then it will just kick over. It's kind of funky.
Host 1 01:51
Is it like a power supply bring up possible?
Host 2 01:54
That's what we thought and we measured the 3.3 volt line and it's coming up just as quickly as or as slowly identical from the previous revisions that was never had this problem. Okay, so it's not like a you don't think it's a sequencing kind of issue. No, no, it's not a sequence problem. Because like, it has like a five millisecond like ramp up, which is like normal for for this. And we measured both the reset line and the 3.3 volt line, and it's fine. But the person I am working with just like started looking at it underneath a microscope. And the chip looks different.
Host 1 02:31
Oh, oh, no. Gone focus.
Host 1 02:36
You have Parker's trying to show a an image picture
Host 2 02:39
On my phone, which doesn't work. But it actually looks quite a bit different. I'm not saying it's counterfeit or anything because it could just come from that Mel's got tons of fabs around the world. It's Atmel SAM D 21. So don't know yet. Go ahead and look into that.
Host 1 03:02
You think you got some super gray market parts or something? No, I
Host 2 03:05
Got it from Mauser.
Host 1 03:07
You think they got some super great luck?
Host 2 03:10
That's the thing is Yeah, you don't know if your distributor? Well, Mauser is a legit distributor of Atmel slash microchip parts. So it's gonna be interesting. It could be nothing though. It could be just like, you know, the fuses are not programmed, right or something on it? We don't.
Host 1 03:31
So I wasn't able to really see what was like, is it just a marking on the chip that was different?
Host 2 03:36
Oh, the like the font slightly different.
Host 3 03:38
Ooh, yeah. But, you know, right now, chip manufacturers are struggling like crazy. I was actually working with my my boss earlier today to try to find
Host 1 03:51
An STM 32 F 051 microcontroller. Because we need that for one of our products. And it's just like, beating your head on a table trying to search the world. For anyone who has it right. Like go to go to Mauser right now and type in STM 32. And look at every single line. It's like, on order on order on order on like, just there. You can't find them anywhere. And the prices are like 5x Right now, if you can find something through the gray market. What STM part there are some that are in stock. Yeah, but not not in the package we want and everything.
Host 2 04:29
So yeah, it looks like only the expensive sem 30 twos are installed. Yeah.
Host 1 04:33
Okay. Yeah, configure and actually,
Host 2 04:35
I saw a tweet. I saw a tweet earlier today that the Sandy 20 ones are also like, no, not mine.
Host 1 04:44
Those look fine. Everyone's panic buying right now. Yeah, but like, at least
Host 2 04:48
The one that we're using a pin thar got like, a couple 1000 So I'm like, okay, that's Yeah, and it's one point if I should panic by, like 1000 right now.
Host 1 05:00
Host 2 05:03
Yeah, maybe it's like we'll finish the podcast and we'll look into be all sold out now.
Host 3 05:09
Well, and so the whole thing with the different font. We experienced some ICS recently where they went out of stock because the plant caught on fire. But they had some excess leftover. So they shipped them out and had them cat capsulated somewhere else. So it could be a situation like that, where they just finished them somewhere else and you have a different font.
Host 2 05:33
They were on a different machine lasered it. Right. Right. So I'm in turn had to make that CAD file, the laser,
Host 1 05:41
Right, comics, a lot of people would
Host 2 05:48
Still buy it right now. If if we always make that joke. If we ever had a fabrication company like a chip fabrication company, it first of all will be called tasty chips.
Host 1 05:57
Oh, yeah. Oh, that's that's a deep cut. Right?
Host 2 06:00
Yeah. But we'd have to have the font with on the chips would be in Comic Sans?
Host 1 06:05
For sure. 100%. And they'd be like, $30 a piece? Yes.
Host 2 06:13
Ah, yeah. Okay. So on to the main topic for this podcast, which you sent me earlier today? And I was like, yes, because we kind of touched us on this, like, I think it was last week or the week before that's a little bit with about open source hardware. And what open source hardware means to us, we can't it was kind of kind of lightly touched on it. But we did hit on one other topic in there, that I think you're gonna go down the rabbit hole this time on, I hope we
Host 3 06:43
Both go down the rabbit hole. I hope everyone goes down the rabbit hole on this one. Because, well, it's important on a lot of different from a lot of different aspects. So we're going to talk about right to repair today, which
Host 1 06:59
I've been seeing crop up a lot in my social media feed in my YouTube videos. I've even seen a handful of people talking about it in our Slack channel. And I've been diving a little bit into it to get more acquainted with what it means. And what's what's funny about it is because it because right to repair touches on what is near and dear to us, basically, as designers and electronics guys, but it also dipped its toes pretty deep into the world of politics. It's a it's one of those things where like on the surface, like if you hear the word right to repair, you're like, oh, that sounds great. And then you start digging into it is like, Oh, this is dirty. Oh, this is yeah, it gets kind of nasty really fast.
Host 2 07:44
Yeah, because it's one of those topics that I benefit from. And also I can also see the other side from in terms of the manufacturer side, or the I guess in this term is the IP holder. Yeah. All right. Yeah.
Host 1 08:04
So I think it's important. Okay, let's, let's first start by just giving this is Wikipedias first sentence about right to repair says the right to repair electronics refers to government legislation that is intended to allow consumers the ability to repair and modify their own consumer electronic devices, where otherwise the manufacturer of such devices requires the consumer to use only their offered services.
Host 2 08:32
Yeah, and it's very interesting with how what right to repair electronics means compared to what has been in the past, which is for motor vehicles, right? Because motor vehicles already have a right to repair act called the motor vehicle owners right to repair act. And I think that came up in about, oh, I want to say like 2000 or 2002, something like that. Oh, I'm
Host 1 08:56
Thinking about the other one that happened in Massachusetts.
Host 2 09:00
Oh, no, no, this is like a federal law. Got it. Yeah. And basically, what it did was ending the unfair monopoly on car manufacturers maintaining control over repair information that could result in independent shops turning away car owners due to lack of information. So kind of a different idea. In the end, it's the same you getting your device repaired by a third party, but it's more of a car manufacturer basically, because a car manufacturers build a document called a factory service manual. And they basically have to allow they have to be able to sell that FSM factory service manual to third party shops basically, and allow them to buy the components that that FSM calls for. So it's a if you open it up and it says replace the Traction Control Module be three Hey, See chips Motor Company has to sell that module to you. It doesn't go as it's gonna be interesting going into right to repair electronics, especially talking about automotive vehicles on the side with motor vehicles don't sell you like the component inside the module being bad, they'll sell you the module. So it's gonna be very interesting going down this right to repair electronics hole with that in mind, in terms of what we already had the right to repair as well. Okay.
Host 1 10:33
I think I think something that is potentially a little bit misleading from the name right to repair is it kind of seems like you don't have the right to repair? Like, if you're voting on this, why would you ever say no? Why would I say no to giving myself the right to repair? It you own your a product? If you own anything from a cell phone to a car? You do have the right to repair that it's not?
Host 2 11:02
Yeah, it's interesting to how it's phrased? Because you're correct it is you can open up your refrigerator and try to fix it. Yeah, now, what, what what is the right to repair mean, though, in this case, then Steven? Well, okay,
Host 1 11:21
So the right to repair actually generally boils down to the right to access to the, to the documentation and the parts to repair. So, like you said, ending the unfair monopoly of car manufacturers maintaining control over the over repairs, this, the right to repair effectively, ends that for electronics, repair shops. So in other words, big players like Apple would have to provide things such as schematics and part numbers, and maybe even service manuals to small mom and pop repair shops down the street, as opposed to requiring that the only place that your thing can be repaired is at an authorized Apple repair center. And I'm picking a little bit on Apple, because they're sort of one of the the big, the the one that everyone complains about effectively.
Host 2 12:18
Correct. And we actually already talked about this bridges, both of those worlds is Tesla on this podcast before where Tesla really tries to skirt the line of the motor vehicle owners right to repair act a lot. And one of the ways they do that is by violating your warranty when you bring it to a third party shop, and that's actually a big part of right to repair is removing those removing the do not remove under penalty of voiding your warranty stickers.
Host 1 12:56
Right. Right. And so, let's talk about Apple for a quick second. Mainly because like I said, a lot of a lot of this electronics repairs has to do with the way Apple handles the repairs.
Host 3 13:15
A lot of a lot of the situations with Apple ends up boiling down to them questioning if you really own the thing that you purchased from them. And it might seem it might seem a little bit ridiculous ask that question. But in general, they they do. There is some gray zone, especially when it comes to cell phones, because a lot of times people are on lease plans were or what is it lease to own with the with phones? And so in that timeframe that you are paying off your phone? Do you actually technically own it? And do you have the right to modify it? Or are you effectively renting the phone at that moment?
Host 2 13:58
It's like back in the day where you're jailbreaking your iPhone sideload applications and that kind of stuff.
Host 3 14:05
Right, right. And so it also brings up the question after you have fully paid off your phone, then do you have the right like do you just instantaneously gain this right to modify things? It ends up being a lot of a lot of gray zone and to be honest, I understand why Apple wants it to be that way because Apple brands themselves as as a luxury brand. They they put themselves out there as like this high quality thing that you know what you're going to get when you buy an Apple
Host 1 14:37
And, and they they in order to maintain that
Host 3 14:42
Ecosystem in a way. They they they have extremely strict controls over how things get done. So if they control all repairs, then they control the way that the user experience after the repair or even the user experience during The repair, you know what you're getting into with Apple, they have all their training all their protocols, all their documentation, under control in their repair centers, such that they control exactly how it ends up. Now, if you end up having a third party, repair something and then say the third party does a bad job, and it needs to come back to the repair center that couldn't, even though it's ridiculous, that can still reflect poorly upon the brand itself, the brand apple, and they could still get blamed for something that's like, oh, well, now you've designed something that can't be repaired, even though it might be the third party's fault for not repairing it correctly, or not. Not doing a good enough job. So I get the idea.
Host 2 15:47
Yeah, how many times? Do people bring their cars to a mechanic and, and even mechanic overcharges them or doesn't do a good job of fixing it or not fixing the correct thing? Right, right, or accidentally introduces a a minor rattle, and then they come back? And they give them a terrible Yelp review? Because you could you could you imagine you get your cell phone repair, but now it has like the switcher mode power supply in it just makes an awful screeching noise whenever you plug it in. Right? That's the equivalent of Dash rattle. Yeah,
Host 1 16:25
For sure. Well, or, or just loose parts inside, right. So the thing about it is Apple actively shouldn't, I shouldn't just necessarily pick on on Apple, a lot of what right to repair is is pushing against is corporations that do withhold repair information, in order to prevent third party repair locations from executing these jobs. And then requiring that all of these repairs be done at service centers. But a lot of the complaints that exist around right to repair is that it seems like these large players are also restricting access to the components themselves to complete repairs. So even if you're aware of a repair, and you don't need the documentation, can you even get the parts to to accomplish the repair? You know, a lot of a lot of what I've seen and read about is like, you know, 30 years ago, and it's probably less than that, but But what will go old school here 30 years ago, you could just walk into RadioShack get yourself whatever transistor you needed to fix your phone, no, and then go home and replace it right? And like that was
Host 2 17:43
What will you can I actually I don't think anyone actually replaced transistor level stuff. But like, tubes would definitely be the example. You would go to RadioShack with your tubes that your TV and they would have a tester there. And you would test your tubes, and then go Okay, this one is the bad tube and you'd buy a new to go back home, plug them back in and watch a black white TV.
Host 1 18:05
You don't Okay, okay. Let's let's take a sidestep real quick. Because that brings up an interesting question. Tubes have always effectively been considered a wear component, because they do wear and they do need replaced. So if you replace a wear component, is that a repair? Like did you actually it's maintenance. So at that point would just replacing tubes be maintenance?
Host 2 18:32
Yeah, I mean, the 100%. Yeah. If you if you were conservative and wear items and Yeah,
Host 1 18:36
Well, but remember a Tesla called out that said that NAND flash, not NAND flash flash memory as aware item maintenance, or is that a repair?
Host 2 18:46
Well, we talked about in the episode is it's how I view it is, if the manufacturer specifies a interval to test and change in like, replace things, that becomes a maintenance item, because it's something you can schedule. The moment that you can't schedule it, then is it maintenance anymore? Or is it just like, Oh, now it's broken? So, yeah, I mean, yeah, like this actually great comment. Eventually, everything wears out, which is true, but is it within the lifespan of the product is a good way to put it? Like, do you expect the tires on your car to last the entirety that that car is on the road? No, I wish to bring some hard tires.
Host 1 19:41
But well, okay, and now we can really go down the rabbit hole. If that's the case, then does everyone need to indicate what the lifespan of your product is? Like? In other words, when you purchase it, the manufacturer tells you I expect this thing to last X years and after that That's usually
Host 2 20:00
The warranty, right? That's how I viewed the warranty is that they say the warranties two years. I'm like, Okay, that's about like, that's what do you call it? That's like the the peak, the Gaussian curve of that product is like most other product is going to hit two years. And then after that is when everything's just gonna start breaking.
Host 1 20:22
Yeah, I don't know. So, so some of the well, let me bring up a specific application here, when going back to the Apple guys. So there's a particular IC, that is a known failure mode in a lot of Apple products. That is a charging IC goes bad in the battery, charging circuitry. It's the ISL 9240, which is manufactured by Renesis. Which it was, it was manufactured previously by someone else. But regardless, that's the way it's manufactured. Now, this is not an IC that is available from the big players, you can't just go out and buy this. You can't
Host 2 21:07
Go to Mouser, DigiKey, etc, exactly. From
Host 1 21:11
I believe in the past, it was available, but it is now not You can't just go and snag it from someone. And if you go do a Google search for that, in fact, I have one pulled up here like the first link is for eBay, eBay, the second one is $37 for something from a forum, whatnot. And then people asking, Where can I buy this, this I see. And apparently, you know, this, this was like a few dollar chip, you could just hot air it off on air a new one on or solder a new one on. And and that usually fix the fix it. If if you were if you had this problem and you went to an apple service center, it could cost upwards of $1,500 for them to do the repair. And most of the time, it was just a straight full on board replacement. Because, frankly, from the big players who does board level repairs anymore, or component level repairs, like not nobody pretty much I can't think of any big manufacturer doing that right now. Right? So going you sort of sort of going back to like, where right to repair comes in here is people are asking why can't we just purchase this chip and have a third party company do the physical repair on the PCB, and a $1,500 repair from Apple, which is just a straight replacement, versus 150 $200 repair from a third party place? That's sort of the crux of right to repair like why can't people have access to this and be able to do that. So
Host 2 22:41
I don't know how much farther you want to get down to this one particular example. But I can tell you where if let's say we they implemented the exact same legislation that like they did for the motor vehicles, what would happen here? You so couldn't, I'm assuming that this because I did read a couple of links for this ISO 9240, it looks like it was you could never actually buy this chip. Like, from a main distributor, like Mouser DigiKey, you always had to go to like the manufacturer, because this is actually a slightly custom part that Apple has manufactured for them. Got it. So going back to the motor vehicle act, what would so you still couldn't buy that IC? Because in Apple's documentation, if they are just doing board level of repair, you would be able to buy the board level repair part, you can buy the big PCB, right. But you wouldn't be so wouldn't be able to buy that part right. Now, is that better? Probably yeah. Actually being able to buy that component least the replacement module is is good. But from like, Apple is not replacing that component either. On the board level, no. So I write the repair in terms of, oh, you're getting all the documentation from Apple and how to fix things, you still not going to be able to buy that part.
Host 1 24:15
Well, okay, so here's the thing. I think we're jumping the gun a little bit and going a little bit further. But But let's start asking questions here. I believe that right, the right to repair community is trying to get everything effectively. So they want the documentation, but they want to also be able to buy the, all the parts effectively. They want that to be readily available, you can just snag them one off and do repairs. And I think perhaps there's a little bit of short sightedness there, because it's very, I mean apples not a distributor of individual parts. And and if it's a custom part made for Apple, should they now stock that should they should they still Like every single part in order to build or repair any of their products at any time for how to go to apple.com
Host 2 25:07
And buy an oh six oh 3.1 micro farad capacitor. Exactly that is that we're going to be getting that. Well, no, that might be too strong man, but I don't know it will it feels like it right.
Host 1 25:19
But but the
Host 2 25:21
Terms of this, that's why I was getting that with the motor vehicle, is it act is you what it does, what the right to repair act for motor vehicles allow you to do is to get the same level of repair that the dealer does. So you get the factory service manual, and you can you have access to all the parts the dealer has access to. So in this case, you a mom and pop shop would have access to the same documentation and the same level of part parts and they can buy that Apple repair centers like regular ones get. Now guess what's going to happen there, though, is that mom and pop shops can do the $1,500 repair, right? Because they can replace they can buy the board, but they still won't be able to buy that part. Unless this Act goes. The right to repair goes even further. And saying hey, subcomponents are now accessible, which is now's like, Okay now, like 0.1 micro farad Oh, six or three components, Chip parts are sub components, then that sounds a little ridiculous going that far. Well, I do agree. I do agree with the, I'd rather just fix that one little part, then jumped into our board, because junking the entire board creates a lot of E waste.
Host 1 26:45
That's the That's exactly the next thing I was going to go on.
Host 3 26:50
One of the hallmarks of of the right to repair movement. In fact, if you go to, we have some links up repair.org. And actually, there's a whole subsection of the website, I fix it, which I fix, it makes little kits of
Host 1 27:09
Tools and things for like, if you need to repair your Nintendo Switch or something like that, you can buy an AI Fix It Kit that has all the right tools for the right screws, that to be able to open your Nintendo Switch or iPhones or whatever. There's a whole section on the I fix it website. In fact, there's a manifesto they even call it where they talk about E waste and repair saving the planet. So the Earth has limited resources, eventually we'll run out the best way to be efficient is to reuse what we already have. And and that's that's direct wording from this repair manifesto from I fix it. So above and beyond, you know, just having access to the documentation and things, what a lot of this is asking for is not just have the third party have the exact same parts as the dealer, because that what that would mean is just the third party would junk the board just like the dealer would, right? This is this is I think they're really getting at going all the way down to component level.
Host 2 28:12
And the kind of side note, I guess, is we got a lot of people chatting in our live stream. We will get to questions at the very end. Unless I like find something that I'm going to clip in
Host 1 28:28
Unless he thinks it's good enough.
Host 2 28:31
Yeah, exactly. It just just stopping the podcast like every five minutes just isn't gonna work. Yeah, so sure. This is our first time trying to do this. So we'll get we'll get I do enjoy that y'all are chatting is just that. Like, if Steven is in this big grant, it's like one of my grant. I can't stop Steven. Okay, continuing on. Yeah. So yeah. It's very interesting on on that is I do agree that being able to replace individual components is is the way to go. Especially on circuit boards, especially since like you have like, like, eventually, like electrolytic capacitors. Like that actually might be a way to think about is like, our electrical lytic capacitors were items. Because they they have a shelf life of like, you know, 1000 10,000 hours, depending on the condition like their their environments. Well, okay. This is not actually has a rating number. Well, but here's the yes, you're absolutely right at what that rating has to do with if you've ever designed electrolytic capacitors into your circuit like that
Host 1 29:45
That rating is so variable based on a bazillion factors that go into a course but so but that jumps right into the next topic that I wanted to go to is instead of like from the let's think about this from the designers for spective let's think about the person who designs the MacBook, or designs the iPhone or whatever, or even the car. So let's say that right to repair legislation goes through. And now, we as the designers have to provide all of our documentation, and we have to start providing information on ICS. What did we provide? Like? Okay, so take electrolytic capacitors, for example, do we have to provide what the exact part number? Or do we just provide the value? Do we have to provide all the information about the package? Do we have to provide information about the lifespan of that component? This charging chip like To what degree of of information are will we be required to supply? Like, here's an example I was thinking of earlier. A lot of times with service manuals, electronic service manuals, you'll get a schematic and it's a it's a schematic that has all the parts you expect on it. But you won't get a bill of materials, you'll just get the schematic and it might say something like 100 are for a resistor on there. Is that a two watt resistor? Is that a critical resistor? Do you do you have to know all the all the intricate, intimate details about that component? What if somebody replaces that? With 100 Ohm resistor? And they chose the wrong one, and then they damage the thing further? Well, who's liable for that? Am I the designer liable? Because I didn't give the repairman enough information on that. Or actually
Host 2 31:31
Even going further, is, let's say, you, let's say you say, Hey, this is 100 Ohm resistor, at whatever package doesn't really matter, right? This one specification, right? And you go, and you pick apart, right? Doesn't matter what part it is. And you test everything got tested? Great. All fine. And so on your schematic you go, yeah, 100 Ohm, oh, six or three, blah, blah, blah, all the specifications that actually mattered. Someone replaces it with something that's equivalent, but not identical. Guess what? Now? That device violates EFS? EFS? FCC, huh? Yeah. Because not the same components. Now? Are you liable? Because you didn't test that extra that extra components, even though it's functionally equivalent. But now your device is out of spec. It's actually another way to think about to go even
Host 1 32:26
Further. What about what if that component was critical for safety? And you just replaced it? And you didn't know you put the wrong part in it? And you cause bodily harm or death? Like? I mean, would that be on the engineers? Would that be my liability? Because I didn't give you enough information about the safety part? This that sounds a
Host 2 32:45
Lot like was it prop 65? In California were like, This is a prop 65? What whatever the one, they just stamp Everything's bad lead. was then what you're what will happen is if if what will happen is engineers will be like, everything's critical. Yeah, right. This is the cover their butts, right? And then does it even matter in the end, then, you know, just like when you see that, that sticker on something, you're like, I don't care. That's the stickers on everything.
Host 1 33:18
Maybe, maybe reel it back, we went down a rabbit hole of like going here, you know, FCC issues, then like death, like, reel it back. And like, let's say there's a component that it really needs to have a good temperature coefficient in order to stay in. Like to in order for a calibration to be correct or something like that. Let's let's just say that let's say the designer Spectre 20 as part of an antenna circuit, but some guy just randomly puts a 500 PPM resistor in there, and then the repair sort of works, but sometimes it does. And if it gets hot, it doesn't work. And then like, do you just say like, oh, man, this iPhone is junk. And then the brand gets a bad rap because the wrong part was installed. Who's at fault for that? Like, there's just, I believe that, that this legislation, like at heart, there's a lot of good behind it. Yes. Which I believe that we should be able to repair our stuff. But like, it's just as I'm going through this, I'm thinking of so many questions that are like, Oh, this would this affects me in a really hard way.
Host 2 34:29
And actually, let's, let's get off this component that Apple gets custom made that you can't buy anywhere, right? Yeah, this ISO 9240. So let's say that was a, let's say, legislation passed for right to repair that they had to provide component level for integrated boards. So you they have to provide this ISL nine to 14 Sure, okay. They can be like, okay, yeah, we'll just sell our overage on like eBay or something. Hmm, okay, whatever. What gets interesting is a lot of those components, especially integrated components are also programmed. Okay, like microcontrollers that have internal flash, are they going to have to? What? Did they just provide the blank chips? Is that sufficient?
Host 1 35:18
No, I'm gonna go further in the legislation, a call for firmware to be something that is required to be provided as well. So
Host 2 35:27
That's gets very interesting because a lot of encryption stuff. I know there's a lot of open source stuff for that. But a lot of the encryption stuff is like baked into that firmware might not be a good idea for that to be out, depending on your viewpoint on open source encryption and that kind of stuff. I will I don't know enough about that sector to make a big opinion on that. But that's just something I know about would be an issue.
Host 1 35:57
You know, this is a little bit of a tangent, but it comes to mind.
Host 2 36:00
I don't know on let's actually go in, like down that firmware tangent is? What if the, what if the microcontrollers don't have like an open source like an open tool chain? To like, even program them? Like, are? Are we going to? Are they going to have to provide at that point, like the entire tool chain that they're using to load up this firmware? I don't know. That just it just sounds like it's getting, like, ridiculously fine. At that point,
Host 1 36:36
I think that there's unfortunately, there's a little bit of ignorance on all sides. In other words, I think both sides maybe are not fully understanding the other side, like the consumer, and the user just wants their crap to work. Right? Yeah, they just want this. They want to be able to fix it at a reasonable cost reasonable price, right? Yeah. Whereas the manufacturers are like, this is very technical. This is very difficult. You pay this price, because it's not something that we can just give to anyone. And I think that there's and when I say ignorance, I don't mean stupidity. I mean, Ignorance isn't like just not understanding the other side, not understanding. Yeah. And on top of that, there are companies that this is their business model. No, I don't believe that. I believe that it is Apple's business model for this, but but like, take Caterpillar, for example.
Host 2 37:28
Yeah, but I think Apple does it for what you said earlier, Apple does this to maintain their experience, the experience and their quality and experience and quality? Yeah, I don't think they do it to screw you out of a repair.
Host 1 37:43
No, I do think they think of their bottom line quite a bit, to be honest with it. But But I think that I mean, I don't think that's the only factor I think that is.
Host 2 37:55
So if they were only thinking about their bottom line, they would not repair anything.
Host 1 37:59
Right, they will just make you purchase another one and blame you for everything that you've ever done. Like the Yeah, if they wanted to be completely evil, but I brought up Caterpillar, I have what I know of how Caterpillar works like the the construction machinery company.
Host 2 38:13
There, they built a lot of engines, by the way too well, and their stuff
Host 1 38:17
Is usually really cheap to purchase. Like it's mostly cheaper than everyone else. But their service plans and their parts are elevated. So you get in, they get you in the door, and then you pay money later on.
Host 2 38:32
But it's cheap, because the parts are expensive. Exactly. That's the industry that's the oil and gas industry term for that.
Host 1 38:40
Right. Which the thing the thing about it is like it's their right to do that if that's their business model, great if you don't like that don't buy their thing. I believe I'm a little bit more conservative libertarian when it comes to this kind of topic, where if you don't like how that company is doing it, don't buy that thing. Like if you don't like how Apple screws you stop buying Apple like in my opinion, it is a little bit more that easy. But like I said earlier, I think everyone they want everything they want the apple but then they want the cheap repairs at the same time. Or the freely open repairs.
Host 2 39:18
Yeah, so I see. Next on the list is John Deere and I saw some people talking about John Deere in chat.
Host 1 39:25
Yeah. John Deere got got slammed for this in 2018. Well, I've been it's been it's been quite a bit to ongoing it's ongoing because John John Deere requires authorized service technicians to service their equipment. So you purchase $100,000 tractor from John sounds like Tesla. Well, it sounds like a lot of companies, right? Yeah. But but they have very highly elevated prices. And you can only purchase parts through authorized vendors. So the idea there There's been some complaint about that where you have to get authorized John Deere guys out to your farm to fix your John Deere tractor, and right to repair. This is sort of beyond the electronic side, it's extending to virtually anything you own. And so people are looking out for farmers kit, like can you survive $150 An hour service call to fix your tractor? Right. So it that's getting kind of roped into all of this at the same time.
Host 2 40:29
So it does sound like John Deere, in this case is violating the right to repair automotive act already, if you consider a tractor automotive vehicle, and I bet you some people who drive them on the roads think they are?
Host 1 40:46
Well, I don't I mean, I bet they're probably not right. They're probably not labeled as
Host 2 40:52
Heavy. Yeah, farm 11, the implements and heavy equipment is under motor vehicles. But if it was, then there are definitely violated because they're not allowing a third party to the same level of service to repair. But that's the big thing we have to keep hammering is because a lot of people I've seen on especially Twitter and stuff will like we can already repair our cars. But I'm like, you can repair them to the same level as this as the dealer can. Going further requires your own knowledge basically right? In your own ability to to get parts. And actually, this is this is a really good interesting question on parts is, before we keep moving down this this big list is what happens. To right to repair, especially in this current supply chain environment. When you can't those parts go out of stock. So let's say Apple says okay, yeah, we're going to be able to supply you with all the parts, and they just stopped using the ISL 9240. And that was a custom part. Well, how long are they supposed to, like keep parts for like automotive? It's kind of like an unwritten rule that parts they might have enough parts for like 10 years of repair after like a model goes out, gets stops being manufactured. And then sometimes a third party manufacturer will like reverse engineer that component or whatever, and then make him like the original OEM, or that that sensor will just sell it on their own with a different part number and just say its equivalents. I don't see that happening. at all with like, integrated components. Like, can you can you find like an out of stock like microcontroller. It's been like, end of life for 10 years and go and find a third party. It's making it
Host 1 43:06
Sometimes, like rarely, I should say,
Host 2 43:09
Yeah, I I can't really think of anything. Like that happens in my industry a lot though. 7000 7400 series ICS that kind of stuff. Yes. Because those are kind of like jelly beans. But like, like an 80 Mega 320 AP if that if Atmel ever decided to like just cut that thing off and just let it die. Is there anyone out there? That's gonna make them? Probably not.
Host 1 43:35
I don't know, some somebody would would pick up the torch. I think on that one. I think he maybe you picked on on that
Host 2 43:42
One. Maybe that one? I picked one that's like,
Host 1 43:45
You pick one of the very few where the answer is probably yes.
Host 2 43:49
The answer would probably be yes. Actually, I
Host 1 43:51
Bet you the Arduino community would figure out how to get the made.
Host 2 43:57
Nope. Yep, probably.
Host 1 44:00
So okay. And that actually brings up a kind of an interesting point. If right to repair means that the parts must exist. Who must
Host 2 44:12
I don't think I don't think they were requesting that though. I'm just that was just me. Going down there. Just thinking about it.
Host 1 44:18
Well, okay. So if Apple okay, if a company has access to the parts, then you must have access to the parts is effectively what right to repair is saying
Host 2 44:29
No? Well, depends. It depends. The right to repair mode of automotive act is no you don't have that you have access to what their service technicians have. IE, if Apple is replaced, I notice that it's like eight times in this podcast. If Apple's just replacing the PCB assembly, you won't have access to the PCB assembly. If Apple was actually placing that chip though, then yes, you get access to that chip. It depends on what their factor Your service manual dictates what you do and what parts you can buy in the FSM is what you have access to well, okay, so I think now I know, I know, the right to repair electronics, they're trying to go further. Yes, and, and get sub components. What we would consider we were considered everyone that's listening to this podcast would consider components like the BI C, the ISL, nine to four zero, but to apple that is not a component that is a sub components.
Host 1 45:29
Correct as part of an assembly. Yeah, but but I think right to repair is also calling for a little bit of environmental ethics to be included in there. So instead of just tossing the board, they want the parts to be available. So I think what I'm saying is a little bit more, it's down the line, but it's, but it is, what kind of what they're asking for is saying we want access to the individual components such that we can make those repairs. So it's beyond what you're saying is like, I get what you're saying where's like third parties must have access to the parts that first parties would have. But above and beyond that they're
Host 2 46:08
Asking for ethical, environmental, roll it back to what engineers, let's just say that is what it is. I think a fair piece of legislation would be subcomponents that have become parts that are known to wear out or fail. So you don't have to provide point one micro farad Oh, six or three ceramic capacitors on your website. But in this regard, this is a very it this ends up becoming a very common component that fails, then you could say, Okay, now that goes into a whole legislation of like, what is reasonable or what that number is, isn't a percentage and ends up going down like the rabbit hole like recalls, for automotives, where like, there's legislation of like, what may? What constitutes of like, what a recall is versus just like a warranty repair? Yeah, it's like, the legislation down that is like bonkers. So, but I couldn't do it. I can't see that as being okay, maybe they don't offer that part. At first, it's until enough, like third party people are like complaining that they need that part, then like, Okay, we will start providing that part. Just started out there, that seems a lot more fair.
Host 1 47:33
I don't know it just like it just seems like you get into sticky situations no matter which direction you approach this from. Well, okay, so questions about about where this is kind of going, or just some some information about where this is all going. I want to bring up Louis Rossmann, which if, if you looked at the person that repairs Apple devices on YouTube, right, yeah, on YouTube, he's a big proponent for right to repair. In fact, he's kind of the one that really pushes for or gives a lot of information and talks a lot about this specific charging chip that we've gone over, and how that's been a giant pain in his ass really. So Louis Ross, he's
Host 2 48:18
Been like sued by Apple and stuff like that. He and
Host 1 48:22
He gets called in for hearings. And like he's, he's, he's got about one and a half million subscribers on YouTube. And he's sort of a big deal when it comes to this kind of stuff. In terms of like, he's got a large crowd that listens to it. He's actually started a GoFundMe to that's called let's get right to repair past and specifically, I believe this is in Massachusetts. And he opened it a few days ago and already has $317,000. for it. What what he's trying to do is sort of backdoor legislation. And I find this kind of interesting, I wasn't fully aware that this was even something that was available. And perhaps this is a Massachusetts thing. But he's he's trying to get this passed through direct ballot initiative, which automotive right to repair was actually passed through direct ballot initiative, which that's something where individual citizens vote on it, as opposed to the legislature. In Massachusetts, however, it takes a significant amount of money to actually get that passed through. So he's looking for $6 million to get this passed in Massachusetts. So go check out that GoFundMe. It's interesting because he gives a lot more detail over what he is thinking right to repair is and what's going on there. And he has he almost does weekly updates on this on his YouTube channel. So if you want to hear more about from someone who's I guess you could say in the trenches, on the repair side of things, I think he's an excellent resource to talk about this Cool, yeah.
Host 2 50:02
Yeah, I posted that link into chat.
Host 1 50:04
And we'll post it up on the show notes. So you can check it out. Oh, for sure. Yep. And in the amount of time that we've done this podcast, he's, he's gained, like 1000 bucks. That's awesome. It's gonna take a while to get to that 6 million, but he actually, and he even mentions in one of his YouTube videos, he got a commitment of $100,000, that isn't part of this money. So above and beyond that he's got 100,000, there's a lot of people really do put some money into this, because they're, I suppose that they're really upset with their consumer electronics and their repair experiences. So honestly, I think I think large corporations, like Apple could potentially hear this. And maybe, instead of, instead of going the legal route, perhaps they could change their practices to alleviate this issue, because I'm not necessarily a huge fan of going to the government and using them as a club to beat your, your position into corporations, I fit a little bit more on the side of like, if this is how Apple wants to do it, then this is how they're going to do it. And if you don't like it, don't buy their stuff. And I understand a lot of people don't really take that stand point, they would rather have have the apple they want or the whoever they want, and also have it be the way they want it to be. I just I'm not a huge fan of the government being in charge of that, and having regulation over these kinds of things. Because it affects it affects us as the designers, and it starts bringing up all those questions that that we were proposing earlier.
Host 2 51:45
Yeah, it's one of the things I really like about I'm reading, I fix its manifesto is what they call it, which has its own connotation that that word, but um, it I like this two devices that can be opened. And that's actually one of the things when I go and buy things I make I tried to err on the side of can in 10 years open this thing up and fix it. How hard will that be? And actually, this the interesting thing is, you can't Is there a cell phone out there? Or we call them cell phones anymore smartphones that can be opened? Like, that's not glued shut? I think the last phone I owned that could be opened was a Blackberry 9000. And that was like, you know, 2005 2006?
Host 1 52:37
Well, and that is that is
Host 2 52:39
I do I do vote with my wallet there was like I tried to buy things that I can open up.
Host 1 52:45
Well, and but that brings up the question, What if you can't? What if there just isn't an option? Right?
Host 2 52:51
That's what I brought up is I don't know of any smartphones that you actually can. So you can't
Host 1 52:57
Yeah, and there is the conservative viewpoint where it's like, well just call Baker Rhone, you know, and it like, I get that, but it's not as it's not that easy, right? It's not as easy as just like, oh, okay, cool. I'll just go make my own trillion dollar phone company. Like, sure it could happen. But what if I want to vote with my wallet right now.
Host 2 53:20
But I'll put this way as you can pretty much look at I fixed this manifesto, and probably every single person on this podcast will be like, Yeah, I agree to all this stuff. But yeah, it's what we were talking about earlier is what does that mean on everything else?
Host 1 53:35
Right. It it just brings up a ton of questions and makes a lot of gray zone there.
Host 2 53:43
But actually, when you read this, this is what the this is what the automotive industry had to go through, you know, in with their right to repair Yeah, like to error codes and wiring diagrams. Yeah, you can get that for your car in the factory service manual. Now, you can get you can choose your own repair technician you can to replace any and all consumables ourselves that's in there as well. Unless you're Tesla I think Tesla's gonna have to face the music eventually on that probably. So we are running up at 54 minutes so I think we should field some questions from chat. So I'm gonna bring chat over here so I can read it. Pardon everyone that is just listen to the audio version the next day after do yes, so DJ Oh two 7x OBD slash can still sucks in cars. Yes, it does really badly. Because so this is a gets that this goes to the reason why it sucks. Or it is because a lot of manufacturers have their own codes, which is fine because they document the codes and you can get it in the factory service manual. But for a lot of times those codes can only be read by their reader, like their specific like, reader or tool. And you have to go buy the tool from you can buy the tool from them, but it's like, you know, eight grand or something like that. And so that's what I was getting that with, like loading firmware or stuff like that is like our are they going to have to provide that like level of diagnostic equipment? Which is the answer is yes, basically. Now, is it going to be affordable to everyone? No. But it's going to be affordable to the mom and pop third party shops. So Earth claw underscore hive mind to create an open source cellphone. There's lots of groups out there trying to do that. I think some are actually successful. The problem with a lot of it is least in terms of pure open source is the radio module. That is the part that turns like the bits into like the modulated signals that go out into the 5g and for G's, or like proprietary black boxes. That's that's the least when I was looking into a couple years ago, that was the big thing. Can Apple be obligated to supply parts when they might not even have them? Yeah, that's, that's what we were getting that earlier, is if they are out of stock, do they? How do they supply them to you? Well,
Host 1 56:42
Okay, at the same time, if let's say, let's let's just pretend Mauser has stock of the parts, can Apple be like, Well, I don't have to supply them because someone else has them. Legislation just means you can have access to them. And Mouser has a supply so I don't have to do anything.
Host 2 56:57
Yeah, I don't I think the the automotive industry does that by through OEMs. So yes, that would be if, if, if Apple's OEM was Mauser, which would be weird to think about, because now it's been cut out of that. Yeah. Yes, that's how it works in the automotive industry. You go to the OEM that's selling the part and they will sell it under like Durer last, for example, which is like Autozone I think box brand is but they sell that same part under the dura last name. And then of course, you can go to the dealer and this is example for Chrysler products is you can buy the Mopar parts, which is like the Chrysler parts box brand. I would, I would assume it would work fairly similar to that model.
Host 1 57:56
Here's a good one. What's the stance on repairability for the pin guitar
Host 2 58:00
For the pin guitar? So the penetrator, which is right there, it's open sources. The schematic will be open source layout will not be well, we'll probably probably have like a assembly like document like J two is here. What would you call those a? Yeah, just assembly document. So I have an assembly document is schematic and then all the components, you can buy it Mauser mousers are OEM parts right. And then for the firmware, I would say that goes on the microcontroller. That would be is closed source. But I would say if we ever like ever stopped making the penetrator, we would just open source that. Because then, because we would not be profiting on it anymore. But if we're making money on it, then you know, anything past that just makes it easy to clone it, which has happened to previous pinball boards of mine, so I don't want to sound too much like a downer about that or anything but like
Host 1 59:13
There's a little bit of crust, right?
Host 2 59:15
Yeah. But yeah, the like the like the microcontroller, like, it turns out like repair. Like you're going to be talking to the person who made it not like a corporation. So
Host 2 59:35
How was electronic repair liability handled back in the day when you could go to the store and test your tubes? I'm pretty sure they like just had a sticker that said warning high voltage and that was it. Yeah. No, it says Good luck. No, actually, if you do look at old TVs and stuff, there's like a circuit diagram. And actually most appliances that you buy, have circuit diagrams inside them like you open up To cabinet and there's gonna be like a little area that's got like a little folded piece of paper. It might not tell you everything, but at least tells you how like stuff is hooked together. Mike says that. Yeah, so you can unhook stuff. And then most of those components are sub components that have part numbers, and you can look them up. And basically once you've also realized there's only like three or four manufacturers of appliances, and they all just have different names. Like we're approval makes like, like 60% of dishwashers on the market or something like that. So everything has like Whirlpool parts inside of them, right? Yeah, for topical use only. My old radios have a full schematic and bomb inside the case says DEF CON 12345. Yeah, yeah. But I would say back then those devices were more thought of as long term and easy to repair was thought about because there was wire wrapping. You didn't really have soldered components. I see a comment earlier, and see if I can scroll up and find it is. Well, there's one right there. That's not exactly what I wanted. But but but but it was something about it was something about the
Host 1 1:01:31
How about this? I just got I'm doing a repair on a buddy's guitar. Yeah,
Host 2 1:01:36
It's an old, old Super Oh, that's kind of just figured out things were simpler back in the day is like the quote
Host 1 1:01:46
Host 2 1:01:47
Yes. Like that. He's Stephens holding up a tube amp.
Host 1 1:01:51
Yeah, quite old to vamp, where everything is point to point, wires just terminate where they need to terminate effectively. I'm actually surprised typically, on these things you would see on the wall of the cabinet, you would see a diagram that at least gives you the indications of what the tubes are. Yeah, I would
Host 2 1:02:13
Say one of the reasons why like, so like the classic manual has faded away, and also might be costs. Like making all that documentation is expensive. And it might be actually cheaper, depending on the product to just make it E waste and then get a new product. I hate saying that. But that's actually probably a lot of accountants going through the numbers are looking at it that way. 100 baggers, it could be Apple it let's say, right? Like, Apple, like, write the paragraphs in effect, and Apple can just be like, okay, are our repair manual is going to be you just get new iPhone. Yep, you can do that. And they would be perfectly if it passes, like how the automotive industry right to your pair of works. That would be it.
Host 1 1:03:08
Well, okay. But but also, it's just interesting
Host 2 1:03:11
To think about that way though. It could be. Yeah, that would be how it would work.
Host 1 1:03:16
So consider something also, I don't even think we mentioned this during the main podcast section, but that I see the charging chip. It's a BGA it's like a multi pin BGA not the easiest thing on earth to repair even if you have the great tools for it. How many shops do you think have microscopes? The the right hot air, and maybe even an IR bed to be able to replace BGA? Chips? Like how many like none, right? At least one right here. And I do. I haven't I haven't back here but I'm not I'm not like that like place off the side of the highway that says we fix your broken screens. You know, like I said tools for that. So why would why would a company that puts BJs in their stuff even consider that somebody would replace that.
Host 2 1:04:05
That's true. DJ Oh two 7x I wish transformers for old pinball machines were still available. Guess what? We had a couple of episodes with drawers on the podcast about talking about designing and manufacturing transformers. So if you can design one and basically to design one you pretty much only need like the inputs and outputs of a transformer and then some efficiency numbers and you can get your own custom transformer made this for actually not a lot of money. It's surprisingly how inexpensive
Host 1 1:04:39
That is. This is a hand wound Raz transformer right here.
Host 2 1:04:44
And oh yeah, it was made. He made this and shipped it to me
Host 1 1:04:47
And it totally works. So he's a weirdo.
Host 2 1:04:53
It's not as expensive as you think.
Host 1 1:04:56
Actually don't know I've got them lined back there I have a whole box of custom transformers that I got made for my products few months ago.
Host 2 1:05:09
I this is my favorite. Like when Steven earlier today brought up right to Paris gonna be this week's topic. I was like, oh, yeah, I love this topic so much, because it touches everything that Steven and I do in terms of like, manufacturing, and our hobbies. All go down this path.
Host 1 1:05:30
Well, and it's probably not a surprise to people, but I'm manufacturing tube amps right now. And so when I hear right to repair, it's like, how much? Am I going to have to support my amps that that I sell to people like it? Do I fit under right to repair? Do I have to give my schematics out? Do I have to make service manuals for myself? Like, I guess I don't make iPhones but you know, I make electronics What do I have to
Host 2 1:05:55
Do? So you would have to provide the same level so let's say your, your amplifier company has you have you do have like a flowchart of like, how if someone sent one back to how to fix it, you just have to provide that process whatever process that you do to a third party you know, I brought up but you would have to that's thing No, you would have to document it though. Whereas right now your documentation is in your brain Ah, that's a very interesting topic should right to repair apply to software? Oh man trying to get like software to run on like the latest OS or something like that. I actually I ran into that problem today. I wanted to get some software that was written for Windows XP to run on Windows 10 by way didn't work.
Host 1 1:06:54
I think you should introduce legislation to make sure that somebody makes it work for you.
Host 2 1:07:03
I ended up just like you're banging the thing and it worked. So
Host 1 1:07:08
That's that's the software equivalent of having a hot air gun.
Host 2 1:07:11
Right? Yeah, basically. Anyone got any other questions? See if I'm gonna scroll up a bit.
Host 1 1:07:26
Do thanks, everyone for interacting. Really? Yeah, this was awesome.
Host 2 1:07:30
Yeah. It was one more I found what I was looking for something else and I completely forgot what
Host 1 1:07:37
So yeah, gadget junkie making the RTR documentation, a part of certification and testing process. I think if there was legislation behind this, companies would start putting that as part of their design process. It would be it'll certainly be like they just to avoid legal issues. Yeah, actually, on top of that, if you look up what's happening in the EU right now, Products are required, or they will be required here soon, to have what's called a repairability index. So I don't remember if it's low or high, but there's a number on there and it shows how easily it can be repaired, which is something that's going to happen in I don't remember when it's going through with
Host 2 1:08:27
Legislation make manufacturers design products with a modular approach, like vehicles. It was interesting as vehicles are not really modular anymore. They used to be they're becoming less and less module as time goes on. Because the ends up being cheaper. So I would say no, is I don't see manufacturers going more and more module I'd see them going the opposite way. Because again, all they have to provide is the same level of service and imparts to third parties as they do to their first party group. And so that was like Why was saying earlier is Apple could just say you know, okay, our read our factory service manual page one replace iPhone with new iPhone, closed book. That could be it Yeah, give but they would get slammed for evil, they would get slammed for it, but that would that would satisfy the law. Right? Right. It would not satisfy the I fix it repair manifesto though. So unless we have any more questions, I think we're going to sign off McAfee Virtual MeetUp it's a good idea. I actually, I'm thinking we use this as like the the live stream as kind of like the meetup. And I think eventually I mean, we got 10 people on our first day trying to do this, which is like super excited.
Host 1 1:09:59
Do well and you know we posted the link just a few minutes before so you know as this becomes more and more thing more of a thing I'm sure we'll get more
Host 2 1:10:11
Yeah cuz oh I want to do is like we'll post like the because right now we do like the podcast notes like 30 minutes before the podcast is maybe trying to do like a day ahead and so we can post like like the main bullet points that we're going to talk about on the podcast so that people were like get more interested in in coming on to the live stream and stuff so
Host 1 1:10:34
On the next episode we're gonna crap about this topic
Host 2 1:10:38
Yeah, exactly. So that was the backfat engineering podcast we're your hosts Parker Dolman even Craig let everyone take it easy
Host 2 1:10:58
Thank you yes you our listeners for live streaming our podcast and then for everyone that's going to be downloading this downloading it. If you have a cool idea project or topic let Stephen I know Tweet us at Mac fat at Longhorn engineer or at analog EMG or emails that podcast at Mac fab.com Also we have a Slack channel. It's got over 500 people in it. It's awesome. It's at Mac fab.com/slack
Transcribed by https://otter.ai